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Let's put the Black Pits 1 into BGEE!


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10 hours ago, ahungry said:

Also - I really really dislike any parts of mods (SCS on Improved Spellhold for one, among others) that tries to remove gear and allow restoration later - as soon as you mix in other mods and aren't on a pure vanilla install, it no longer becomes a lossless transition, and certain gear (from various mods) gets permanently lost - whether it was in a custom bag the mod didn't know how to handle, or just coded in a way it didn't appear visible to the snapshotting scripts.

SCS’s version doesn’t rely on any prior assumptions about which items are bags or similar - it generates the list automatically at install time. Provided you follow the readme and install it last, there shouldn’t be any issue with custom items that doesn’t arise with unmodded-game items. (If you have a reproducible counterexample I’d be keen to hear it, as it could point to a code error.)

It is certainly true that removing and restoring items is a very fiddly task in the IE.

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9 hours ago, Endarire said:

What stuff did you intend to remove from default BP1?

Anything that seems to be a duplicated item that is supposed to be unique according to its name/description (e.g. Hands of Takkok, but also including Fallorain’s Plate/Whistling Sword/Axe of Mauletar, even though they are not unique in function), anything that is just too OP to bring back to BG1 (e.g. Improved Cloak of Protection), and anything that would be powerful to bring back to BG1 and whose effect could easily be replicated in BP fights by potions or scrolls (e.g. Belt of Giant Strength, Ring of Invisibility, Wand of Cloudkill). 

There’s lots of, um, interesting? discussion in an EE FixPack thread about whether the Paws of the Cheetah should be unique. But my position is to allow multiple copies (the games already have multiple copies anyway) and let the FixPack sort out the issues with its description. So no, I didn’t remove that one. 

EDIT - here's the preliminary list of what I've flagged for removal:

  • dart05 (asp's nest)
    quiver01 (infinite arrows +1)
    quiver02 (infinite bolts +1)
    quiver03 (infinite bullets +1)
    amul16 (metaspell amulet)
    amul21 (amulet of power)
    wa2amu (sensate amulet)
    belt03 (destroyer of hills)
    belt06 (hill giant strength)
    belt07 (stone giant strength)
    boot03 (frost resistance)
    boot05 (electrical resistance)
    brac06 (gauntlets of ogre power)
    brac07 (gauntlets of  dexterity)
    clck24 (cloak of reflection)
    clck31 (imp. cloak of prot. +2)
    ring05 (ring of invisibility)
    ring07 (ring of prot. +2)
    ring09 (ring  of free action)
    ring22 (ring of holiness)
    ring27 (ring of fire control)
    ring31 (ring of regeneration)
    plat02 (fallorain's plate +1)
    plat05 (plate of the dark)
    ax1h03 (axe of mauletar +2)
    halb03 (suryris' blade)
    hamm03 (ashideena)
    dagg03 (heart of  the golem)
    sw1h09 (the whistling sword)
    sw1h23 (rashad's talon)
    wand13 (wand of cloudkill)

 

Edited by subtledoctor
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For some of the high-end items you're not removing, reducing the numbers might be wise. Three each of +2 small shields, +2 medium shields, and Pellan's shield? Actually, that last one's an item with unique flavor that already exists in the campaign and should probably be removed entirely. Three each of various +2 weapons, when the entire pre-SoD BGEE campaign averages about 2.5 magic weapons per proficiency group other than generic +1s and some types don't even have any +2s? Enough boots of speed for the whole party (three each on two tiers), when you normally get one or two in the whole campaign? Full plate for everybody (five each on two tiers) when there are normally only two sets outside of the depths of Durlag's Tower?

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On 7/26/2022 at 1:56 PM, jmerry said:

and Pellan's shield? Actually, that last one's an item with unique flavor that already exists in the campaign

Yup, that was an oversight in my post, it is in fact on the removal list in the mod code.

On 7/26/2022 at 1:56 PM, jmerry said:

For some of the high-end items you're not removing, reducing the numbers might be wise. Three each of +2 small shields, +2 medium shields

That's a good idea. In fact getting +2 stuff at this stage could  be rather OP (unless you're like me and all generic +2 stuff has already been removed from the game). I would be in favor of taking this even further, and limiting the stores to a single +2 item in any given category. Or, take it even further than that and remove all +2 items completely - the added IWD items could serve in their place (see below). They are substantially more expensive, so you couldn't buy as much +2 gear... but IMO that's a good thing.

The issue here is, any changes to the stores will affect both BP-in-BG and the Black Pits standalone game. It's easy enough to distinguish gold and XP awards for each case, but the .STO files are the .STO files, they don't know which route you took to get there. So I don't want to go too  crazy with the changes. (Though arguably we're already past that point.) But really, I want to look at the existing store inventories with a critical eye. The tier 3 stuff (almost all the interesting magical stuff that's for sale) is only meant to serve you for five fights. (And, I guess, for exporting a party to BP2? I don't know what happens to your gear in BP2, I haven't played it yet.) So instead of a Belt of Giant Strength, five Potions of Giant Strength would serve the same purpose. Instead of Boots of Speed, five Potions of Speed or a couple Haste spells would serve the same purpose. Potions of Invisibility can serve in place of Sandthief's Ring. Et cetera. I don't see much reason to retain any permanent gear that can be replicated by five instances of potions/scrolls/wands. (I personally never use Boots of Speed, but a lot of players are weirdly obsessed with them, so I could leave one pair as fan service.)

Like I say I just played through with all +2 gear disabled - I was wearing Akheg Armor, Chain +1, Studded Leather +1, and Karajah's Leather. About half my weapons were unique +2 stuff (Varscona, Ashideena, etc.) and the other half was +1 stuff. And it was totally fine. So I really don't mind eliminating most or all of the generic +2 gear, or reducing the number of copies to a single instance of each.

Here's a preview of what's being added:

Spoiler

Brendak:
  usltr2a - Reinforced Studded Leather
  stout - Stoutward small shield

Concocter:
  uspot1a - Potion of Action Transference
  uspot3c - Potion of Strength Transference
  uspot4b - Potion of Life Transference

Devlin:
  ulbow3c - Long Bow of Action
  uhxbw3a - Crossbow of Defense
  ulxbw3a - Crossbow of Defense
  uarow2a - Hammer Arrows
  holdfst - Holdfast Arrows
  trnbolt - Tranquil Bolts
  force - Force Bullets (casts Otiluke's Sphere)
  udart3b - Darts of Blinding
  bardic - Bardic Horn of Valhalla
  cittern - Cittern of War*
  mhorn - Merry Shorthorn

Elan Garaq:
  beltbon - Bone Belt*
  bootman - Boots of Many Paths
  bootmoa - Boots of Moander
  ohbrac01 - Flaming Fists of Lin Mei
  clckbs - Cloak of Burdened Spirits
  urobe1a - Robe of Enfusing
  cone - Cyclocone*
  ohioun02 - Red/Blue Ioun Stone

Gorch:
  umhulk - Umber Hulk Plate
  beetshld - Rhino Beetle Shield
  cdrelm -  Remorhaz Helmet
  helmpat - Helm of the Patriot

Magda:
  erevain - Erevain's Broadsword
  intrces - Intercession
  turodah - Turodahel
  kreswrd - Kresselack's Sword
  u1ham2a - Sanctified War Hammer
  bess - Love of Black Bess**
  umstr2b - Lesser Static Star
  uflal2a - Crooked Flail
  zzm5mh - Misery's Herald**
  fkiller - Faith killer
  u1hax4B - Benorg's Truth**
  poker - Puny's Poker
  biteme - Spear of Kerish**
  uhalb3a - Defender Halberd

Thardek:
  udagg2a - Static Dagger
  spine - Spinesheath
  diver - Spell Diver
  zze6pe - Pig's Eye
  lucky - Lucky
  dazer - Dazer
  peaceke - Peacekeeper
  zzs6sc - Spider Crusher of Doom
  nature - Staff of Nature's Wrath
  shstaff - Staff of the Hand +3**
  stafhmg - Staff of Hanged Man's Glee

Xithiss:
  amulbar - Barrier Amulet**
  amulbra - Badge of the Brave*
  boneam - Bone Amulet
  bwtalis - Black Wolf Talisman
  corello -  Amulet of Corellon
  solonor - Amulet of Solonor
  uring3b - Ring of Strength
  wandmis - Pemby's Wand of Many Missiles

* These will only appear if the underlying IWD spell has been installed (EDIT - install order could be a problem...)

** These might be too powerful, need to consider...

 

Edited by subtledoctor
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1 minute ago, subtledoctor said:

The issue here is, any changes to the stores will affect both BP-in-BG and the Black Pits standalone game. It's easy enough to distinguish gold and XP awards for each cast, but the .STO files are the .STO files, they don't know which route you took to get there.

Just clone them. Edit the dialog so which store you get depends on whether your in BP-in-BG or standalone.

(Or add/subtract items by script when you start BP-in-BG.)

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As an install option at least if not by default, I would like the infinite +1 ammo for the sake of convenience.  By default, these are available much later in the campaign but they really shouldn't be.

As for IWD items, my main request is to add the Elf Chain.

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I think the unenchanted Quiver of Plenty would be fine. But unlimited +1 arrows when you're not even halfway through BG1? An item that you wouldn't ordinarily see until you are at epic levels/in ToB areas? No.

8 minutes ago, Endarire said:

As for IWD items, my main request is to add the Elf Chain

The versions of elven chain I saw in  IWDEE are all wildly OP for this stage of the game. But normal elven chain? That's actually a good idea. It would be a  way to obtain it without having to deal with Dorn's BS.

Looking more closely: ha ha, Gorch has five copies of Fallorain's Plate! Silly. Does anyone know if there is a Weidu macro or something that makes it easy to patch numbers of items in .STO files? I only see functions for adding and removing stuff. If not I guess I will clone the stores and make the changes manually...

EDIT - I guess I could code up patches using GET_OFFSET_ARRAY. But TBH that would probably take as long as manually altering things in NI.

Edited by subtledoctor
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As for +2 weapons, note that Thunderhammer Smithy sells a +2 Dagger of Venom by this point, meaning at least to me that standard +2 weapons seem OK to buy from the Pits.  Players can also rush Ulgoth's Beard right out of Candlekeep and buy a +3 Quarterstaff, equippable by pretty much every class.

The infinite +1 ammo dispensers in vanilla seem very underpowered by the time they're available.  Everard's Sling (infinite +5 accuracy/+2 damage ammo) is available around the start of BG2, and with the vanilla BG assumption that pluses from ammo and weapons don't stack, and that +1 Shortbows & +1 Longbows are available at this point in the Pits with +1 Shortbows vanilla purchasable in Thunderhammer Smithy, letting people buy infinite +1 ammo at this point seems like a minor thing.

Edited by Endarire
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13 hours ago, Endarire said:

The infinite +1 ammo dispensers in vanilla seem very underpowered by the time they're available.

…Because they’re not available til TOB? Yeah that’s right, the point of them is not to be useful magical ammunition, but simply to be a player convenience. Whereas, giving unlimited magical ammo at level 5 is not just a convenience but in fact a wildly OP upgrade. For reference: when my party just went to the Black Pits we had some fire arrows and ice arrows, but zero magical bolts or bullets. Going from zero to infinity before the game has even presented you with a batch of 30 or 40 is not inconsequential; rather, it robs the player of the satisfaction of the slow-but-steady accumulation of gear.

This is what you’re not getting (and to be fair Bioware didn’t get it and many modders don’t get it): getting too much stuff too early actually makes you lose something, as a player. Yes you could have a +2 dagger at this point, and probably a +2 war hammer and a +3 greatsword. Maybe a +3 staff if you blow all your money on something fairly useless. But that does not mean you should have +2 everything, on every inch of your body. You eventually will, because this is BG. But it is important to keep that “eventually” eventual. 

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Okay maybe some people with more experience can double-check what I'm doing here. In the dialogue with Bellows the gnome to open the Concocter's store (BPBELLOW.dlg), we see this:

THEN BEGIN 29 // from: 
  SAY #32142 /* ~Howdy, <CHARNAME>! What can I do ya fer?~ */
  IF ~  Global("OPENING","LOCALS",1) ~ 
  THEN REPLY #29312 /* ~I could use some more potions.~ */ DO ~StartStore("BPCONC01",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))~ 
  EXIT
  IF ~  Global("OPENING","LOCALS",2) ~ 
  THEN REPLY #29312 /* ~I could use some more potions.~ */ DO ~StartStore("BPCONC02",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))~ 
  EXIT
  IF ~  GlobalGT("OPENING","LOCALS",2) ~ 
  THEN REPLY #29312 /* ~I could use some more potions.~ */ DO ~StartStore("BPCONC03",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))~ 
  EXIT

First off, and  unimportantly, that seems wrong to me? Why are the conditions the same to open  BPCONC02.sto and BPCONC03.sto? EDIT - okay I'm blind, sorry,  this is fine.

Second, and more importantly, I want to add a condition to each response. I know how to add conditions in .bcs scripts but this seems a bit more finicky. I was going to change it to this... is it correct?

THEN BEGIN 29 // from: 
  SAY #32142 /* ~Howdy, <CHARNAME>! What can I do ya fer?~ */
  IF ~  Global("OPENING","LOCALS",1) Global("BPINBG","GLOBAL",0) ~ 
  THEN REPLY #29312 /* ~I could use some more potions.~ */ DO ~StartStore("BPCONC01",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))~ 
  EXIT
  IF ~  Global("OPENING","LOCALS",2) Global("BPINBG","GLOBAL",0) ~ 
  THEN REPLY #29312 /* ~I could use some more potions.~ */ DO ~StartStore("BPCONC02",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))~ 
  EXIT
  IF ~  GlobalGT("OPENING","LOCALS",2) Global("BPINBG","GLOBAL",0) ~ 
  THEN REPLY #29312 /* ~I could use some more potions.~ */ DO ~StartStore("BPCONC03",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))~ 
  EXIT

...or should the second trigger go in its own set of brackets?

Thanks

Edited by subtledoctor
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