Cahir Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 On 9/20/2022 at 12:01 PM, JohnBob said: In addition of this thread I sent him a message on beamdog, to ask if the traification was appropriate and if he would like something to be done differently... No answer, but he updated the mod yesterday, changing the file structure and making the translation already done useless ! I'd suggest trying to reach him on The Artisan's Corner discord. If he doesn't respond there, that means he doesn't want to. I think he mentioned there once or twice, that he doesn't want to traify his mods yet, because he is still working on them and changing things after traification is much more of a headache than it is now. It would have saved you some nerves. Generally, as a fellow mod translator, I'd suggest translating mods that are not active development, or at least those that the majority of content is already written and their authors don't plan changing them substantially. This would save you a lot of headaches. This is the major reason I haven't translated any of @subtledoctor's mods (I only proofread Scales of Balance). It's not because I think low of his mods, quite the opposite, it's because I know he does make a lot of changes often, with any of those changes involve adding or changing .tra lines. I want to save him and myself the additional stress of worrying to update translation before release. This is also the reason why I wait for some of @morpheus562the mods, to reach more or less final shape, before I consider starting to work on them. I have fallen into this trap once, with Monastic Orders of Faerun, where the author decided to redesign the whole mod, which would need me to translate it again from scratch. Just to be clear, I don't hold any grudge about that, mod authors have every right to do with their mods whatever they want. Some authors remember to give translators a heads-up about the new version release, even coordinating with them the .tra files update, others simply don't remember about that or simply relying on translators to keep track of new versions and monitor if translation is still up-to-date. All approaches are fine by me, as I've said these are their babies, and they can take care of them however they want. 18 hours ago, JohnBob said: I just learn to traify with this mod, sorry, I thought this community would encourage learning... Learning is fine, it's just a shame you haven't waited for an answer. If the author doesn't respond, you can always ask here if someone knows where is the best place to reach him/her. As I've said, it would have saved you some nerves. 19 hours ago, JohnBob said: Translations take a lot of time and translators work as they can, just like the modders... As a fellow translator, I sympathize, but I repeat what I wrote. Mods are the work of modders, and they can do with their mods whatever they want. It's a good practice to ask modders first, if they are willing to include translation in their mods beforehand. Granted, I haven't followed that rule always, but I'm usually fairly certain if an author/maintainer of a mod I want to translate will include it in the mod package. If I can reach an author, or he deliberately doesn't respond, it's like a red flag to me, to stop considering translation of said mod. Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 (edited) I'm pretty sure the artisan already knows about this, but it's always possible that he doesn't, but probably not. Translations are done when you get the time and the motivation, they can also be the wish of some players (like this one). 1 hour ago, Cahir said: Learning is fine, it's just a shame you haven't waited for an answer. If the author doesn't respond, you can always ask here if someone knows where is the best place to reach him/her. As I've said, it would have saved you some nerves. I don't quite understand, are you saying that I need permission before trying to understand how something works ? I'm translating the Morpheus mods according to the updates and changes, thanks to that some french players could try the mods and discover some bugs or incompatibilities... It also allowed Morpheus to find solutions to adapt the translations of Enhanced Power Gaming... I can't speak for him, but I hope the effort is worth it... Translations do not prevent the mod from being developed or rewritten, it is mainly more work for the translators... I repeat that my problem is not the refusal, but the ignorance... And I repeat also that it wouldn't have made sense to ask before being able to do the traification... My intentions are good, I only proposed and didn't impose anything to anyone (how could I... ?), it's his choice and I don't have any problem with that... I don't really understand you think that translators have the whole life to make translations, by following your method the time to have an answer we will never translate anything , and it's also a gift to the modders to make this translation offering them recognition and carrying their work around the world... We don't win anything, I have no problem playing in English... Of course modders can refuse it, it's their mod they do what they want Honestly I see that your intention is appeasement and understanding, but you are looking for excuses to your friend... He has the right to be rude and I have the right to not like it... Edit :I don't mean to be disrespectful to you, sorry if I seem rude myself... Edited September 21, 2022 by JohnBob Quote Link to comment
jastey Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 One (more) advantage to ask/ tell about translation beforehand is that there is rare cases where two people are working on translating the same mod into the same language. With a post and/or coordination via the mod author, such (rare) unnecessary doubled works can be prevented. Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 Let me recap : 1...Post number one : On the main modding forum and probably the best way to reach the modder and to know if someone else is already on the translation, Also a post has been created on the French forum. I do not know how to traify and publish my attempts... I also ask if someone has somthing to say about it... 2...Post number two : five day later, I think I did it and test on two others mods to verify... I post it here and quote the artisan again... and ask if someone has something to say about it again... 3... In the meantime, the enthusiastic translator started a first draft of the translation, this is his first translation and the artisan kitpack is technical, so a lot of proofreading to do for me 4... I post the first translation files on Github in order to share them easily with the translator and facilitate the proofreading 5...I try to reach the artisan on Beamdog, here is the text : Spoiler JohnBob September 16 Hello ! I do not know if you go more on one forum or another, so I'm posting here in addition to this post on G3... Some french player would like to play some of your mods, so I do some attempts to traify three of them : - The-Artisan-s-Kitpack - Shadow-Magic - Pai-Na-NPC-mod-for-BG2-EE I think I did it, but if you want to take a look it will be great ! I am willing to do some changes if you prefers that thing was made differently... And I could try to traify your others mods, if you want, of course... For The-Artisan-s-Kitpack, I need to do a proper repo before I send you a pull request with one commit (currently the french translation is going step by step... )... But the two others are ready to merge... I was hoped that some modders at G3 would take a look to be sure I didn't make any mistake, and I still hope ! No answer... 6...3 days ago the artisan update his mod... So I send him this on beamdog : Spoiler I just saw that you updated the artisan kitpack... I guess I didn't even deserve a answer... 7...I warn the translator that it will be difficult to complete this translation and come here to write this post... You know the rest well... If this is not enough for you, there is nothing else to say.... Don't count on me to bow to the non-sense of this situation Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 I shouldn't post again, but it's still hard not to... You realize that your protege is on discord dispensing his "kindness" to mods and modders... And you're lecturing me for saying that I was disappointed... Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 On 9/21/2022 at 2:38 PM, JohnBob said: “I guess I didn't even deserve a answer” General rule, being passive-aggressive usually won’t get people to be more responsive. Anyway complaining about AionZ is not going to help you, so what’s the point? Think about more constructive options. You have a traified version of his mod! Great! Now you can play it in your language. At the end of the day isn’t that what you want? Or maybe there are other players who want to play in your language. How about this: you can fork the mod into your Github account, and apply your translation to your fork. You can then do a pull request for AionZ to accept the translation back to the main branch, and maybe he will, maybe he won’t. But it’s not your concern anymore, because you and others now have a place to download the mod with your translation. You won’t benefit from updates, of course, but that is the price to be paid - several people have explained the tension between traification and mod updates. Maybe it’s not a perfect solution, but a perfect solution is outside your control. There is a solution that is in your control, that you have already done 90% of the work for. So: do something productive, or sit around and complain. It’s your choice. Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 I don't complain, I'm surprised and disillusioned that this thread was completely ignored before there was any drama... why ? Lava reproaches me for starting the translation without permission and now you propose me to continue despite his "refusal"... why ? I don't complain, I don't understand the attitude and the rules that seem to be different, depending on the days, the moods and the people involved... And how some can come and lecture me for a someone who does not respect others and their work and seems perfectly capable of defending himself... why ? I guess it's a partisan thing ! Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Your last three posts are literally just complaining. Which is fine, complain all you want. But just realize that me saying "go ahead and complain" doesn't mean people won't find it annoying. You are a free person, but so is everyone else. I'm just trying to express that you are more likely to be satisfied, in general, if you focus on things you can do for yourself. You cannot demand that another modder include your work in their creation. So if that is your expectation for this thread, you should probably adjust your expectations. But OTOH every Weidu mod is in some sense open-source. The code is there for all to see in every mod, and the ones on Github even have all changes recorded. A bunch of people have versions of my mods - my work! - cloned to their own Github accounts. I can't stop that, and as long as they don't hawk their versions to players, I don't see any reason to stop it. And contrary to what you said, AionZ never actually refused you. So do what you want to do, to make his mods work for your game. And if you want to share that traified version with friends, I don't think it is out of bounds. Just don't go around telling everyone to download your version, don't try to make money off it, etc. Just don't be a dick, and be sure to honor the fact that it is a version of AionZ's work. Here's a concrete example. A bunch of bugs were identified in the Item Revisions mod, and nobody was fixing them. So I fixed them myself, for myself. And I have mentioned in various places that, if someone wants to use Item Revisions, my forked version of it is the best one to use at the moment. I also offered all my fixes to the main branch, so that it could benefit from my efforts. If at any moment the main branch incorporates fixes for those bugs, or if someone tells me to take my version down - even if they don't fix the bugs - then I will take my version down. But even then I will still have it for my own personal use, and in the meantime everyone else can currently get the benefit of it. I don't see why you cannot do something similar here. Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 If you can't see that the translation is not the problem but the fact that there is double standard... I can't be more explicit than I have been... Quote Link to comment
Cahir Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 4 minutes ago, JohnBob said: If you can't see that the translation is not the problem but the fact that there is double standard... The problem is that the translator did a traification which should be a modder's job. As said in this thread already, traification is done when modder feels there will be no new content, or if the content added will be limited and can be easily plugged in later, when new translations arrive. But I guess there is no way of convincing you to anything at this point, unless until you calm down a little. If you want to feel angry at AionZ, that's your choice. It won't make this situation resolve to your favour, if anything, AionZ will be more adamant to not include your work at all. And if you want to convince everyone around that he is a bad guy here, well, good luck with that, you're doing a bang up job. Sorry for sounding harsh, but you really don't make this situation coming any closer to a successful conclusion. Quote Link to comment
Guest Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Very well, I guess the word "disappointment" was really bad and deserved all this mess... Quote Link to comment
Jazira Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding about Johnbob's Github repo. His Github repo is not mean to host another version of the mod, but to learn the how-to's. And sometimes there are several translators or proofreaders working on a single project using Github. As some have already said, it is not recommended to translate mods that are still in development. It is counterproductive for both the modder and the translator. I won't comment about why not to, because I believe it has been explained very well. Traification is one of the last, if not the last, step in mod developement. Give AionZ a bit of time. Who knows why he doesn't have responded yet. And give yourself a bit of time too. No answer is still better than a "No, bye!" Quote Link to comment
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