Minute Meteors

[Guest radderzeitfan]

This is my first post here. I still love playing the game especially since I have been able to 'upgrade' it with SCS. So, here it is:

IMO, the reduction of Minute Meteors to +2 is probably too strong and it only circumvents the real problem stemming from the unbalanced protection spells (PFMW, Mantle, Improved Mantle and Absolute Immunity). I suggest that Minute Meteors should be able to hit (almost) any 'unprotected' creature (i.e. a plus +3 or +4 enchantment would probably be best) and that instead the duration of the four protection spells is progressively increased from 4 to 5 to 6 and 8 rounds, respectively. Since the 'low' level spell PFMW already protects against any enchantment level, this protection should be expanded to all the 'higher' level spells, too.

[polytope]

The issue, to me at least, is that another SCS spell tweak increases the power of Mantle (to block weapons of <+4 enchantment), thus there's no need to reduce the meteors all the way to +2 rather than +3 missiles, considering that even a +3 weapon is now impotent against any of the Mantle/ProMW line of spells, besides, it's weird for the meteors to have an attack roll bonus so much less than the effective enchantment level.

That said, there are very few enemies that +3 Melf's Minute Meteors would be useful against compared to +2: Iron golems (+3 needed to hit) actually regenerate from fire damage, whereas stronger fiends (balors and pit fiends) are fireproof and have a low AC meaning a mage is probably missing a lot. I think greater mummies are the best target for MMM if these are +3 rather than +2, them and the extra tough vampires (vampire behaviour probably makes melee weapons a better choice though).

The duration and scope of weapon immunity spells is balanced as is, any longer/more comprehensive in protection and these become tactically equivalent to faster casting and cheaper (at levels 6, 7 & 8 ) or extended duration (Absolute Immunity) versions of Time Stop.

Edited November 16, 2022 by polytope

[subtledoctor]

…It’s a frickin’ 3rd-level spell. Consider that “Enchanted Weapon” which gives you a +3 weapon is higher lever. +2, if anything, seems generous to me. 

The game - especially the game as modified per DavidW’s vision - doesn’t owe it to you to let you demolish high-level enemies with a low-level spell. There are high-level spells for that!

Edited November 16, 2022 by subtledoctor

[polytope]

Except that the 2nd circle priest spell Spiritual Hammer creates a +3 hammer at caster level 13 and henceforth, and its duration is 3 rounds + 1 round/level, effectively allowing more strikes than Melf's Minute Meteors even if the priest had only 1 attack per round (much more if hasted, having fighter levels, Boon of Lathander or all three). Enchanted Weapon is only one spell tier higher than MMM at 4th, its duration is 5 rounds/level on EE, 24 hours (with a reduced selection of weapon types) in original BG, again, effectively allowing far more attacks. More importantly Melf's must be thrown by the caster, who as a mage probably has poor THAC0, Enchanted Weapon can be cast on (or on the original engine, given to) a single class fighter whose strength and specialization bonuses likely ensure much more damage with each swing than a hit from a wee meteor. It even works for dual wielders on EE iirc, thus getting two +3 weapons out of a single 4th level spell.

[subtledoctor]

I mean, yeah, those spells have situational advantages, but MMM has some rather extremely useful situational advantages itself. All of what you said may be true, but none of it makes me feel that assigning a +2 enchantment bonus to the meteors is wrong or unbalanced. 

It’s one of the more awkward spells to translate from the tabletop to the BG CRPGs, because the translation involves a lot of nitty-gritty details that only exist or are of amplified importance in the CRPG.

But +5 always struck me as lunacy. So what is preferable: .+2, or +3? My answer is “yes.”

[Guest radderzeitfan]

@ polytope & subtledoctor:

Thanks for your insight on the thought process, why the enchantment for MMM was lowered. I really believed it was due to the enchantment levels of the Mantle spells.

However, MMM is one of the very few chances to have >2apr with a mage build that I'm aware of (except maybe with darts and the HLA energy blades) and in the end, I was probably frustrated that I was unable to hit a certain skull with enough damage per round as a level 15 solo sorcerer even with Improved Haste and Tenser's transformation. I was very surprised that my Dragon Breadth almost killed him. I wait a few more levels.    

[Graion Dilach]

Honestly, I would scale the enchantment of MMM with the caster level, like starting from +2 and gaining +1 every fifth casting level or so.

[subtledoctor]

I mean, a mid-level solo sorcerer should not be able to defeat a 30th level demilich. To the extent you can in the normal game and it’s more difficult with SCS, that’s very much a feature rather than a bug. 

Now, a 20th level sorcerer? You have plenty of tools: Haste + Tenser’s + BBOD or IWD Mord Sword; Dragon’s Breath/Comet; maybe Shapechange? Not to mention whaling on the guy with any number of fancy weapons. But eh, I’m not an expert here because I don’t like doing that fight so I’m not super knowledgeable about that enemy.