Returning after a decade - would someone mind catching me up a lil (lot)? :)

[Aryene]

Hello folks,

Been ages (and I see Aklon's still alive and in development so all's right in the Universe )!

I'd like to return to BG sometime soon, it's just that time in life. But having taken a look at SHS and here, I just... don't really know where to start. Do I use Enhanced Edition? Do I use BWP? Are there alternatives? I read about 1 that's actually bad, which only solidified my impression of being extremely out of the loop and very exposed to making stupid errors, installing wrong/outdated things, and then crying

So I thought, perhaps some kind soul would be willing to catch me up, give me some advice. How do I proceed with building a big install nowadays? BG1-TOTSC-BG2-ToB glued together. Which version do I use? Any mods to avoid? Any tools to grab and tools to skip? Any well-known pitfalls a noob will land in?

 

My goal would be to build a big install that:

1. Does not include mega quests (that take you to an entirely different region for hours at a time, unless it's something spectacular and must-play, then who am I to say no)

2. Includes as many new quests as possible

3. Includes as many new encounters as possible, both combat and otherwise, just fresh stuff (without throwing game's balance out the window)

4. Raises difficulty and provides challenges - I used to love playing with Tactics, especially the old version that made Irenicus' Dungeon ridiculously difficult, I had a blast, I don't know where it went, but I never found it after that 1 playthrough Maybe it wasn't even from Tactics and I'm misremembering. I also remember some extreme battle in uh... Umar Hills? That was fun.

5. Does not add new NPCs, unless they're extremely well-done and entertaining, in an immersive way (any you'd recommend?), I default to the familiar faces most of the time anyway so no need to bloat the install

6. Does not add new spells or item spam, 1 spell in a mod or some such is totally fine, of course, but not half a spellbook of new spells or IWD spells or any such, I do like BG's systems and I do like their item distribution (which makes new items feel *cool*, I'd like to keep that balance)

7. Works? That'd be great, yeah

 

And also any tips are welcome, really. New amazing mods that are must-play, best rule tweaks, visuals, stuff you love. I'd love to hear all about it.

Thank you for reading and even more so if you reply!

Cheers, mates

[megrimlock]

As someone who came back to the game 18 months ago after longer than a decade away, I would say the following:

0. Yes, use the EEs. The modding scene now is focused around them, whilst the classic version is withering on the vine somewhat. This forum is much more active than SHS (and is in fact probably the most active of any BG forum at the moment). The way to do a big install is via EET (Enhanced Edition Trilogy), you'll see plenty of discussion dedicated to that on these forums. The specific EE interquel, Siege of Dragonspear, gets less love than the original games but is worth trying out - and there are a few mods by jastey which subtly improve upon some of SoD's shortcomings.

1. I have recently (re)tried Shadows over Soubar, Darkest Day, Check the Bodies and Region of Terror - ie all the old BG2 megamods which fit your description here. RoT is the only one I feel like keeping on future installs, and even then it's of lesser quality than the more recent content. There is rather more of the "old" stuff worth keeping in BG1 imho, but again the newer stuff is generally better quality - check recent topics on here or on beamdog forums.

2/3. Many people, including myself, will recommend the various quest mods by Lava del Vortel (his site is called "weasel mods", but he is active here and on beamdog forums too). There's plenty of other good stuff around too, but that guy is a machine in terms of churning out quality content.

3/4. Morpheus562, active on these forums, is building up "Tactics Remix", updating the old Tactics mod for the EEs. But everyone and their auntie will tell you that THE mod to add to increase challenge is Sword Coast Stratagems (SCS) - it improves enemy AI and upgrades most enemies in the game, along with many specific tactical challenges. And if you played Ascension back in the day, it's still alive and kicking and generally recommended as a must to improve the TOB section of the game.

5. I've now tried out every NPC going on EET (including many that were never specifically updated for EE, let alone specifically EET compatible). Only a few of them actually crashed the game! (Mawgul, I'm looking at you) But in truth you need not look far afield if you are being selective. Again by common consensus, the NPCs by aionz (aka The Artisan), skitia, jastey and Lava are the best quality.

6. I never played with BWP back in the day, but I understand it was more of an "all or nothing" thing than EET (or just plain old BGT). With EET you only add the mods you want. Sure there are plenty of mods that add or change spells and/or game mechanics (subtledoctor does a lot of those), but you can ignore those if it's not your style. I would suggest that you might consider adding the Icewind Dale spells option if you install SCS though, it helps broaden out the options for clerics and druids.

7. K4th0s, the maker of EET, maintains a list of compatible mods, this is the best indicator of what "works", though not every mod on the list is compatible with every other one: https://k4thos.github.io/EET-Compatibility-List/EET-Compatibility-List.html

Finally re tweaks, the Tweaks Anthology/cdtweaks is most people's go-to as it has a ton of options especially for Quality of Life improvements. There are plenty of other tweak mods which are worth playing around with, but that's maybe for future installs!

Edited March 31, 2023 by megrimlock

[Aryene]

13 minutes ago, megrimlock said:

Tips galore!

Thank you kindly, this gives me a great place to start! I very much appreciate the extensive write-up

 

[megrimlock]

One last thing I should have said - if you prefer the vanilla NPCs there are also individual mods to expand the content for most of them, which you'll find on the EET list linked above.

[jmerry]

Note also that the EE itself includes some added content. In BGEE, there are several new recruitable NPCs added with quest content; two of those feature new areas you can travel to. There's also a side adventure "The Black Pits" separate from the main campaign, focused on a gladiatorial arena in the Underdark. Take a party from nothing to level 10, fighting through the foes in the arena to earn your freedom. Then there's a full-on expansion campaign "Siege of Dragonspear" which takes you from the old 161K experience cap to 500K - sold separately.

BG2EE has another adventure following up on the Black Pits, this time set in an arena in Thay. Take that party from 500K experience to over 6 million, until you're powerful enough to rebel and overthrow the whole thing. The main campaign has four added recruitable NPCs, each with romance paths and quests that take you to several new areas.

The new NPCs have some mixed reviews, but they do fill things out in important ways - you can now build a full evil party in BG2EE with a protagonist and five recruited NPCs, and it'll include all of the essential party roles regardless of your protagonist's class.

[Bartimaeus]

3 hours ago, jmerry said:

The new NPCs have some mixed reviews, but they do fill things out in important ways - you can now build a full evil party in BG2EE with a protagonist and five recruited NPCs, and it'll include all of the essential party roles regardless of your protagonist's class.

You know...most "evil" people/characters, including in these games, are of the utterly vain and selfish variety rather than the more idealistic "I have grand ideas about how the world and everyone in it should be, it's just that they're evil" types. You know who really selfish people don't generally get along with? Other really selfish people. You know who really selfish people do usually like being around and taking advantage of? Unselfish people. Like...Edwin should be just as likely (if not more) to backstab and murder someone like Shar-Teel compared to Jaheira, and vice versa. Now maybe Lawful Evil people are more likely to be an exception to this (hello baatezu and other well-organized evil!), but it doesn't really feel like there is a lot of actual Lawful Evil being put into meaningful action for the most part.

Well, what was my point? I guess just that the generic evil person is probably more likely to get along better with a generic good person rather than another generic evil person.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[jmerry]

Interesting you mention Edwin there. His brand of evil is that he's a wannabe supervillain. He wants to take his death rays (well, death spells) back home where he grew up and SHOW THEM ALL! The adventures that he gets involved in are just a means to an end for him, building up enough power to realize his dreams.

And there are only a few specific characters that he conflicts with. Neera, because Edwin's still a Red Wizard even if he's in exile. Valygar, because he's an evil wizard. Keldorn, because Edwin is paranoid about paladin oversight. Minsc, because Edwin just can't shut up and not insult Dynaheir's memory. For everyone else, pragmatism wins out. Edwin may be evil, but he's all talk and very little action in that regard; he'll work with the party and slaughter their enemies (who are mostly evil) just fine.

... Uh what was the point? These characters aren't just "generic evil". They have specific issues and motivations. And those are what drive the conflicts with other characters. There are certainly some mixed parties you can build without any interpersonal issues; my "Wee Cant Spell" run featured all of Keldorn, Korgan, and Mazzy, for example.

No, the real reason to build an all-evil party is convenience in reputation management. If your reputation rises to the top, any evil party members depart forever. If your reputation sinks to the bottom, any good or neutral party members depart forever. So then, a mixed party has to take care to not hit the extremes, raising or lowering their reputation preemptively whenever they might approach those levels. A very gamey reason, but so be it.

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, jmerry said:

Interesting you mention Edwin there. His brand of evil is that he's a wannabe supervillain. He wants to take his death rays (well, death spells) back home where he grew up and SHOW THEM ALL! The adventures that he gets involved in are just a means to an end for him, building up enough power to realize his dreams.

Isn't that the exact type of evil I just mentioned? Pure vanity and selfishness? There's no real guiding principles behind the way he looks at himself or society, or the way treats other people - just his own ego and how much others will serve (or annoy) him. If good characters serve him while treating him with the respect and admiration that he thinks he deserves, I don't think he'd spend any more thought upon them than absolutely necessary, not unless they get in his way for some reason or another. Although if someone fawns over him to manipulate him, maybe that'd be even better? Yeah, he'd probably love that a lot more - the low wisdom score and being street-stupid as he is, I suppose.

Tiax seems to be the more unhinged and less intelligent version of Edwin, but otherwise they seem to be largely one and the same. Strangely, one of them is chaotic and the other lawful... Well, IIRC the law vs. order spectrum of D&D is predicated upon the society one inhabits, so Tiax having his own unique albeit insane ideals of how the universe should serve him and only him run pretty contrary to...how everything else in existence feels about it, so I suppose it makes sense he'd be chaotic. Edwin doesn't seem nearly so concerned with that sort of nonsense, so I would've figured him to be Neutral Evil.

But I get your point regarding specific issues/motivations, and that it's really just the gamey mechanics that are the real issue here. I'm kind of the opinion that most evil characters probably shouldn't care about their reputation, because most evil characters are not really the "I have to be known for my lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering" types. Probably only Viconia really cares about not being thought of as a "hero" - most of the rest of the lot would probably smirk, say "why yes, I am a great big hero", and then use it to their advantage wherever possible (note: I don't know anything about the EE companions, maybe one of them is more like Viconia...and maybe Shar-Teel is also more like Viconia, now that I think about it).

Edited April 1, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[jmerry]

The BG1 companions don't get much characterization (unless you use mods like the NPC project), sadly. So if you want to interpret Shar-Teel a particular way, that's up to you - her canon character is pretty one-note. I ran her in my mostly high-rep mixed party "Wee Cant Spell", along with Kagain, and went so far as to write them epilogues when I reported the whole thing.

For Kagain's epilogue, I had him use that reputation to found a new mercenary company that supplanted the Flaming Fist in the Beregost area. Please ignore the rumors of smuggling.

For Shar-Teel's epilogue, I had her become a vigilante attacking those who preyed on women. Until her violent methods and a target with enough connections got her branded an outlaw, and she fled.

The evil EE companions:

in BG1, there's Baeloth. More an easter egg than anything else, there because of the Black Pits reference (where he's the villain in charge). He's a showman with a complete disregard for anyone else's rights. Put on a big show, and if other people have to die for it that isn't his problem.

For the whole saga, there's Dorn. Blackguard in service to a demon, regularly commanded to do some pretty terrible things. He's as close as you get to evil for evil's sake, though there's still some nuance there. He's sold his soul for power, and he'll express some regret that the price was too high ... which comes to a head in his BG2 quest, where you can choose to kill his patron in favor of that demon's rival, kill the rival to reaffirm his loyalty, or kill both. The latter leaves Dorn fallen, without his powers. "Freedom, at last... But the cost..." (Sadly, this choice is not reflected in his epilogues. The only variation is between the romance option and the non-romance option.)

In BG2, there's Hexxat. She's a vampire, with no qualms about killing to sustain herself, but her most important desire is to end it all. She wasn't turned by choice, and she sees all the downsides. At the end of her quest in ToB, she is offered the chance to become human again, and she'll do it if you don't go to some effort to convince her otherwise. If she takes the offer, she dies immediately; she's long past her natural lifespan.

For Dorn and Hexxat, there's a banter the pair get that encapsulates their motivations pretty well:

Spoiler

Dorn: A word, Hexxat?

Hexxat: Just one? I hope it isn't "die."

Dorn: No. If anything, the word will be "please."

Hexxat: Please? I was given to believe that Dorn Il-Khan takes what he wants.

Dorn: Some things cannot be taken by force.

Hexxat: A surprising admission, coming from one of your background.

Dorn: Damn it, woman! You know what I want. Would you make me beg?

Hexxat: An amusing notion, but no.

Dorn: Then what must I do?

Hexxat: To become a vampire? Simple. Find one who's willing to turn you.

Dorn: You would deny me?

Hexxat: You, and all who would willingly submit to this cursed existence.

Dorn: I have much to offer...

Hexxat: You've nothing I want.

Dorn: Hmm. If you change your mind, let me know.

Hexxat: If I do, I will. But I won't.

 

[Aryene]

Since I'm a sucker, I don't really play evil path I don't mind evil NPCs as long as they're characterized well, though, I often had Viconia in party in regular BG (with a mod that turned off reputation-escape, cause that's un-fun to me, she was in enough debt to suck it up in my head cannon).

Which of the EE NPCs are genuinely well written and entertaining? I've heard quite a bit of bad stuff about the writing of the new parts in EE and I'd rather not waste time dragging along some low quality NPC.

 

And also a more important question - if SoD gives so much extra XP, how is it plausible to have a balanced SoA playthrough after that? Not to even mention the first part of the Pits, apparently?

[jmerry]

You're not intended to play the Pits with the same party as the main BG1/BG2 campaigns. They're entirely separate adventures, with a different paradigm - build a party just for them if you're interested. Or maybe you have a build idea you want to try out in a combat situation; the Pits are good for that too.

As for the experience from SoD? Yes, starting at 500K will make the very beginning of SoA easier. But before long, that will be swamped by the vastly increased experience you earn in the new campaign. In the medium-long run, you'll be maybe a level ahead of where you would have been without that extra campaign. Which doesn't make all that much of a difference.

[subtledoctor]

5 hours ago, Aryene said:

And also a more important question - if SoD gives so much extra XP, how is it plausible to have a balanced SoA playthrough after that? Not to even mention the first part of the Pits, apparently?

It’s actually not that big a difference. In the beginning SoA dungeon you still don’t have any gear, and the SCS component for it bumps it up a bit. (Those dwarf crossbowmen will sting you whether you are 7th level or 9th level.)

In Athkatla, the first ~two quests might be easier? But you very quickly get into quests that are designed to work whether you have 250K XP or a million XP. So the 300K extra from SoD isn’t really noticeable. (IIRC Beamdog made a statement at the time saying “we think you’ll like the way we handled it” but they really just reaped the benefit of how BG2 was always structured.)

[Aryene]

Good to know, thanks again guys!

[Endarire]

There's also Black Pits in EET which rebalanced the Black Pits I to fit into BG1EE & EET.

[Aryene]

Aye, I've been wondering about using it. Perhaps it is the way, I doubt I'd go out of the game to play with some temporary different party