Revised Ability Scores user-configuration question

[Guest jesse]

Hi,

 

Is there a way to use the Revised Ability Scores while re-introducing fighter / non-fighter constitution bonuses and constitution based 'shorty' saves?  I play with so called "double damage" mode so the front line naturally benefits from fighters having significantly more health points than other classes, extending to dwarven defenders with high CON.

 

Jesse

[Guest Jesse]

To continue this thought some: on double damage mode, the differences between class benefits are more pronounced, and the lack of CON hp bonus for fighters becomes a big reason _not_ to choose them for the front line, unless there a mechanism (say new feats) that recover the benefit with some choice cost.  Lacking so called shorty saves is a significant nerf to those races because a +2 bonus to saving throws is basically inconseqential in both early game (bad base saves) and late game (+2 is insignificant wrt base saves).  The combined loss in survivability for fighter / shorty combos especially is very significant, and for the most demanding of play throughs "hardcore, no reload", there's even fewer reasons to populate the front line with them.  Unless that was the design intention all along.

 

[DavidW]

At the mechanical level: there's no way to disable the dwarf/gnome/halfling save changes within the mod, but you could just delete the files 'savecndh.2da' and 'savecng.2da' from the override after installation, which will restore unmodded behavior. Fighters aren't nerfed at all, it's just that other classes' hp are boosted, but if you don't want that boost, deleting hpconbon.2da will restore vanilla Con behavior (at least as regards hit points).

At the design level, let's consider a dwarven defender with Con 19. In the unmodded game, she gets +5 hit points per level and +5 to saves vs poison, wands, and spells. With this component, she still gets +5 hit points per level and +7 to saves vs poison, as well as +7 to saves vs polymorph. Her wand and spell save bonuses depend on her Dex and Wis, but if they're both 10 - which would be quite weak on the scale of most PCs - she'd have +2. I'd say that's broadly comparable. She has to make some more complicated choices about how to balance Con, Dex, and Wis, but that's intentional. 

If I left the dwarf modifiers in place, she'd have +10 to saves vs poison, +5 to saves vs wands, +5 to saves vs. polymorph, and +5 to saves vs. spells - and that's before allowing for any modifiers from Dex or Wis. That seems overly generous. (In general, this component makes saving throws a bit better, I'm concerned about not overdoing it.)

To look at a couple of examples of NPCs in the game:

1) Korgan has Wis 9, Dex 15, Con 19. His save bonuses are: unmodded +5/+5/+0/+0/+5, modded +7/+2/+5/+2/+1, with your change +10/+5/+5/+2/+4

2) Mazzy has Wis 13, Dex 18, Con 16. Her save bonuses are: unmodded +3/+3/+0/+0/+3, modded +5/+6/+3/+4/+3, with your change +6/+7/+3/+4/+4

 

 

[Guest Jesse]

Noted, glad to hear there's room for user-based customization on this, and without much monkey-puzzle.  Thanks.  A shame the per-class / race bonus / penalties are not easily customiziable to modders.

Re: Fighter HP nerf, yes, in absolute terms, no nerf, but their relative class value from HP weighed against other classes is comparatively nerfed, and directly against their role.  I'm delighted to have more fighter ethos form the front line as a consequence of these changes, but from both a balance and thematic perspective, I think Fighters deserve a categorical win in total HP as a clear reason for picking them. (BTW, do NPCs benefit from these changes, or would that require re-kitting?)

Agreed, the distribution from boosts with the new bonuses and (native) shorty bonuses stacked is too much.  What specifically concerns me with the 'modded' section is the low spell saving throw for the typical low wis front liners pure fighters, given how prevelant of an attack it is to defend against.  Personally, I like that a race choice can overcome a class deficency in this way.

[Nox]

2 hours ago, Guest Jesse said:

Agreed, the distribution from boosts with the new bonuses and (native) shorty bonuses stacked is too much.  What specifically concerns me with the 'modded' section is the low spell saving throw for the typical low wis front liners pure fighters, given how prevelant of an attack it is to defend against.  Personally, I like that a race choice can overcome a class deficency in this way.

Yes, pure fighters with low wisdom suck at saving against spells. And because they tend to have a high con, they are good at saving against poisons. As usual. If you want good saves against spells, lower your CON and pour points in WIS instead? It is a question of what you deem more important. Or use + saves vs spells / +res items? The most dangerous spells were always AoE CC spells that target the mind, like Terror, Confusion, Domination, Sleep and such. And these saves were always governed by wisdom. I would understand if you pointed out the fact that wizards are at a disadvantage compared to clerics because Intelligence doesn't bolter any saves, as opposed to wisdom. But then again, the strenght of wizards was never in their resilience.

If you want a balanced frontline tank, i advise for a multiclassed or dual classed Fighter/Cleric, or fighter/druid. Spells like Armor of Faith, protection against evil, chant or defensive harmony can help. And it is probably more versatile than a pure fighter, which is better at pure DPS, especially if equipped to be hard hitters. I have no idea how it is like to play 'low wisdom typical frontliners' because except for having Minsc in the party, i never tried such a thing. I always try give 14 wis minimum to fighters, if i have a choice in the matter.

Well, this is merely my own perspective. I don't mind having flawed characters. This is what makes builds and itemisation fun to me.

Edited January 4 by Nox

[Guest Jesse]

The context there was wrt shorty races being uniquely able to hedge against that classic pure fighter deficiency.  That's an dynamic I enjoy and make class / race choices more interesting.

[DavidW]

3 hours ago, Guest Jesse said:

 A shame the per-class / race bonus / penalties are not easily customiziable to modders.

They’re totally customizable to modders; this is a mod, after all!

3 hours ago, Guest Jesse said:

BTW, do NPCs benefit from these changes, or would that require re-kitting?

No, party members only. 

[Guest Jesse]

Huh, I totally misread what you had said before, believing the restriction was baked in at an engine level.

Anyway, thanks for the information and breakdown, appreciated.

Jesse

[DavidW]

You're welcome.