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[Idea] Fun with weapon proficiencies


CamDawg

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But still what gaming value would all these proficiencies add or are they mostly assembled in the known categories? Anyone who could wield a scimitar could also use a cutlass or a saber with some skill.

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Yep, they are combined with the existing proficiences; as already mentioned in the thread (I think :)), creating new proficiences isn't possible. BTW I'd think wielding a cutlass would be more similar to wielding a long sword than a scimitar :). Some examples:

 

- Long Sword/Cutlass/Ninja-To

- Short Sword/Rapier

- Scimitar/Falchion/Sabre

- Katana/Wakizashi/Tachi

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Club, Mace, Morning Star = 1 Proficiency.  Choosing points in this reflects the character's proficiency in smashing things with a stick with a knobbly bit on the end.

Ideally (pfft, yeah, ideally, whatever that is), proficiency points would look like trees, not like the bars they are now: You would put one * in One-Handed weapons, once you had that you could put a * in Hilted Weapons, then you could progress to putting a * in Slashing Weapons (which would also give you a * in both Clubbing Weapons and Chopping Weapons, although these wouldn't really be usable until you put a * in Handled Weapons), and only then, once you've established some skill in swinging a sword, could you begin to appreciate the subtleties that differentiate a Long Sword from a Wakisashi.

 

Unfortunately, implementing that would mean a total rewrite of the game engine. I mean, come on, "I have Grandmastery in Staves but I don't know how to use a Spear?" The only difference between most of the Blunt weapons in BG2 are that the Club deals damage with its momentum alone, the Morning Star uses spikes to penetrate armor and injure the warrior within, and the Mace attacks the armor itself by driving a flange through the plate, so applying shear to the handle while the flange is still embedded will peel the sheet metal back, something of a medieval can opener. Such fine differences of use would only come into play around 60% of the way to the equivalent of Grandmastery. Pity that can't be done in BG2.

 

I'll respond to people's points as I catch up with the thread.....

 

The terminology surrounding morningstars has always been a pain in the butt. A stick with a chain and spiked ball has been called a Morning Star, Mace & Chain, Flail, War Flail (with some authorities insisting that it must have multiple heads to be called a War Flail), etc. I doubt there will ever be much of a concensus on this issue, so we might as well just adopt the existing a system and stick with it. For me:

spiked mace = Morning Star

ball on the end of a chain & handle = Flail

 

Ninja-tos were not 36 inches long, as they never really existed in the first place, as NiGHTMARE has pointed out. But if they did, they would be more likely to cap out at about 24 inches of blade length, so they could be used more effectively in confined quarters and at close infighting. The proverbial black-clad Ninja is not going to get in a swordfight with a Samurai, he is going to drop down behind the Samurai and slit his throat.

 

On the issue of pointy Warhammers, and Short Swords as Slashing weapons: All we need do is implement alternate versions of each, just like the existing 2-handed versions of Katanas and Bastard Swords, so that the Short Sword of Backstabbing can now be used against Mustard Jellies, and Fighters (but not Clerics) can use their Warhammers as War Picks.

 

On polearms: Certain weapon classes lend themselves very easily to polearm versions. What originally sparked the idea, for me, was Frostreaver: The favored weapon of a Frost Giant can now be wielded in a Halfling's offhand?!? I don't think. It should be 2-handed, use the Axe proficiency and the Halberd paperdoll. Tachis can also be easily implemented by using the Katana proficiency on what is otherwise a Two-Handed Sword. It wouldn't hurt to have a Footman's Flail or a 2-Handed Warhammer (with the Runehammer being the most obvious contender), but they would look rather silly as there's no paperdoll to match them. A Naginata would be nice, but I don't think it deserves its own proficiency--I also can't decide if it should go under Spear or Halberd. (My copy of A Book of Five Rings has Musashi describing both spears and halberds, but never uses the word naginata, which is a bit confusing for me. A personal quirk of the translator, I expect.)

 

I also don't see enough difference between Scimitars, Sabers, Falchions and Cutlasses to break them into different categories....and while Katars and Handclaws are very different from Daggers, they might as well fall into that proficency if they were to be implemented--same with Tantos.

 

My preferred breakdown of weapon proficiencies:

Existing weapons ... (Possible weapons)

 

Bastard Sword

Long Sword (Rapier)

Short Sword / Ninja-to

Axe / Throwing Axe (Kama)

2-Handed Sword

Katana / Wakizashi (Tachi)

Scimitar (Cutlass, Saber, Falchion)

Dagger / Throwing Knife (Tanto, Smallsword)

Warhammer (War Pick)

Club (Escrima, Tonfa)

Spear (Throwing Spear, Pike, Lance, Harpoon)

Halberd (Naginata, Billhook, Partisan, etc.)

Flail (Nunchaku, Poi)

Mace / Morningstar

Staff (Short Staff)

Long Bow

Short Bow

Crossbow

Dart (Shuriken, Chakra)

Sling (Slingshot)

 

[ADD] Added a few more exotic / unlikely weapons. If Club is absorbed into Mace / Morningstar, I'd like to nominate Whips and Chain weapons to fill the empty slot. Maybe Ropes too, like Lassos and Nets, although that would make this start to look like a catch-all "Exotics" proficiency.

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After all, back then most women normally weren't allowed to use weapons at all :).

Except the tanto...or in times of war, when pretty much anything goes (although I think that's what you meant by "normally").

 

Of course, here, in the gender-neutral game of Baldur's Gate, the women can be Samurai and leave the men to clean the house.

 

I am undecided on whether or not to keep the Club proficiency separate from Mace/Morningstar. Sure, they're almost identical in their use, but I kinda like having the "Frying Pan" proficiency that everybody has at least some training in, if only from playing around as kids.

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Regarding the naginata......my understanding of the naginata is that many samurai considered it a "chick weapon" so an overinflated sense of masculinity may also be the culprit here.

So the history channel was wrong about this, then? I didn't pull it out my ass. I was also half joking. (But only half. The documentary I saw stated that the naginata was taught almost exclusively to women. The wives of Samurai were often taught the weapon as a way of defending themselves when the homestead was under attack.

It was thought that the weapon's extra reach would compensate for the fact that women typically aren't as strong as men.)

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6oS just basically stated exactly what I had been planning. :) We won't be adding new weaponry types, as that's better served in either Ashes of Embers or Lands of Intrigue, but I think the groundwork will be laid fairly well for expansion to new weaponry. So, the actual changes:

 

Wakizashis move from Wakizashi/Scimitar/Ninja-to to Katana proficiency.

Ninja-tos move from Wakizashi/Scimitar/Ninja-to to Short Sword proficiency.

Morningstars move from Flail/Morningstar to Mace proficiency.

 

I also like 6oS's proposed expansion for the most part, for all you young aspiring weapon makers.

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Wakizashis move from Wakizashi/Scimitar/Ninja-to to Katana proficiency.

Ninja-tos move from Wakizashi/Scimitar/Ninja-to to Short Sword proficiency.

Morningstars move from Flail/Morningstar to Mace proficiency.

Sweetness. One question: As this tweak is rather in the nature of a fix, will size restrictions be implemented? For example, my proficiencies suggestions includes Staff, and also Short Staff. Whereas Staves can range from 6 to 9 feet, Short Staves are around 4 or 5--putting that into BG terms, it's a stick that uses the Staff proficiency and can be managed with just one hand by Humans, Elves, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs (if they choose, it can also be 2-handed if they want), and it's the only size of Staff that can be wielded at all by Dwarfes, Gnomes, and Halflings. As it's rather silly to suppose that Mazzy wouldn't look like an idiot trying to swing the Dragon's Breath, I think a general restriction on the shorter races using two-handed weapons (with Crossbows, Short Bows, and Spears being exempt from this rule) should be imposed.

 

We won't be adding new weaponry types, as that's better served in either Ashes of Embers or Lands of Intrigue, but I think the groundwork will be laid fairly well for expansion to new weaponry....I also like 6oS's proposed expansion for the most part, for all you young aspiring weapon makers.

Difference between "tweak" and "mod" duly noted, I'm just trying to be comprehensive. You said you liked it "for the most part," do you have any specific disagreements?

 

Note: A Smallsword is different from a Short Sword. Both are of similar length, but whereas a Short Sword is moderately hefty and can be used agressively for both stabbing and cutting attacks, a Smallsword is quite thin, and used most often as nothing more than a parrying weapon. It is often basket-hilted to protect the hand and also (hopefully) help trap an opponent's blade. (I thought as long as I'm including the Rapier, better have its companion as well.) Related Note: Should Kensai be allowed to wear Bucklers?

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