Creatures XP and Stats

[ptifab]

HIgh everyone,

 

i'm starting this topic here, because i would like to discuss (and understand) the mechanics about monsters stats and xp reward calculations in regards of the rules of DnD 2.5/3.0 and Baldur's Gate as a video game.

I have search a little bit around internet to see if there were already some discussions about that, but i cannot find anything that is relevant in regard of what i'm trying to understand. I do know that some fellow modders here have already pointed out some problems about creatures stats and wrongly assigned specifics (scripts, equipments, proficiencies, classes and more) but i don't know of the impact it has on the game experience and if we are opening the pandora's box.

So, here it is:

1. how are calculated monsters and encounters XP in baldur's gate ?

2. how are the stats defined for them ?

3. why are there so much inconcistencies between two creatures that should be the same ?

4. does anyone has already tried to see if there could be a way to "harmonize" and "correct" some big mistakes there ?

That's a lot to discuss, but as i am trying to mod my game since a long time now, i'm struggling to understand what is going on here. Because the further you explore the base game and the mods, the more you see mistakes, erroneous or contradictory stats/profs/classes assignments, and either tremendous amounts or too low xp rewards with no reasons.

If someone wants to take the time to explain some/all of that with me (and us, maybe there are some others that are concerned about this. It's an old game after all), and if some modders have some basics rules/references when they mod their own mods or game to share ?

[Jarno Mikkola]

4 hours ago, ptifab said:

1. how are calculated monsters and encounters XP in baldur's gate ?

Calculated ?
It's a value set in the .cre file, specifiying on how much the party as a whole gains xp when it's killed. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter what the books say, they are no book for thing like this.
Specifically at offset 0x0014

 

4 hours ago, ptifab said:

2. how are the stats defined for them ?

They too are set in the .cre file(s). Simple, but also not cause they can get benefits while some don't, and most of the creatures have what's called natural armor, which is very much likely (low is better) lower than any equipment it can have.

 

4 hours ago, ptifab said:

3. why are there so much inconcistencies between two creatures that should be the same ?

They have different .cre in their usage, easy.

 

4 hours ago, ptifab said:

4. does anyone has already tried to see if there could be a way to "harmonize" and "correct" some big mistakes there ?

Sure... and after you have leveled the BG1 creatures... you also will need to take on all the BGT, Tutu, BG1EE etc creatures, and you aren't even 1/10th deep into it yet, so you might as well stop and consider that the whole thing is a mess and you cannot really fix it.

Edited July 15 by Jarno Mikkola
link..

[ptifab]

uh.... i don't know what to say Jarno, this is not really helpful at all nor the open discussion i would like to have. I do know for a fact that it's a big mess and a lot of work, but please don't condemn or judge anything before even discussing a little bit about it. My researchs have told me that there are reasoning behind all those calculations and stats and i do know it's also something that is potentially biased by a lot of factors. Heck, even Baldur's Gate is an hybridation of both 2.5 and 3.0 dnd rulesets so i know where all of this come from too. But as an analystic and technical person, i just want to understand a little bit better about what's this all about as i want to spend some time on it, because i enjoy doing that. That's all  

[rigidjelly]

Monster stats have a very loose connection to their physiology/intellect/magicvoodoo relative to an average human with 9 or 10 in all stats.

Combat experience, though less insane than quest xp, is not balanced relative to anything at all barring "lower level monster should usually give less xp". Nor could it, given the non-standard xp-to-level nonsense from AD&D.

Stats/abilities/resistances were not, afaik, copied completely 1:1 from source material to BG nor even BG to BG2. Some of these are oversights, as determined by there being similar (or even same) creatures possessing source appropriate stat sheets, some of these are perhaps intended. 

Various fixpacks have made headway through specifically altering "bugged" creatures, but this is a large, dull and tedious task. SCS automates the correction of wildly assigned values though this method lacks some finesse. Both methods run up against "is this worth the time" since this is all done by hobbyists, with real lives and often with multiple projects even within this community.

There's the Soontm to be release EE fixpack, so if you wanted to sit down with all 392,105 2nd and 3rd edition manuals and correct/verify every creature in the game 1 by 1, organise your results and then post it, I'm sure it would be well received. Discussion could then be had with actual data.

[Chitown Willie]

Adding a little color: While the XP is hard-coded in the .cre file, there is a method behind the madness as far as how it got calculated.

Per 2E rules:

To determine the number of XP to give for overcoming enemies, use Table 31. Find
the Hit Dice of the creature on the table. Add the additional Hit Dice for special powers
from Table 32 and find the adjusted Hit Dice. Add this number to the current Hit Dice
value, so that a 1 + 1 Hit Die creature with +2 Hit Dice of special abilities becomes a 3 +
1 Hit Dice creature for calculation purposes.

This formula produces an experience point value. Multiply this value by the number of
creatures of that type defeated and add together all total values. The result is the total XP
the group earns. It should be divided among all of the group's surviving player characters.

 

For example, the player characters manage to defeat three orcs, a rust monster, and a
green slime. Each orc is worth 15 XP, since they are one Hit Die each and have no
special abilities. The rust monster is worth 420 XP. It has five Hit Dice but gains a bonus
of +2 for a special magical attack form (rusting equipment). The green slime is worth 175
XP, since its base two Hit Dice are increased by 3 for a special non-magical attack form
and immunity to most spells and weapons. The player characters divvy up a total of 640
XP.

 

Edited July 15 by Chitown Willie

[ptifab]

Thank you for your answer @rigidjelly, your point of view is interesting, and i understand why it could be tedious to maybe even try to correct/verify all creatures in the game. But this is just maybe a task for a community of modders and not solely on one person (like i would like to do all that, your point of "we also have a life" is really valid here ^^).

but as i see projects like scs, or items revisions or even the fixpacks, i don't know why it's so difficult to correct maybe not all but at least some group of creatures ? The discussion could start to be organized around what are the stats, xp, etc and their adjustements. there's a lot of interesting stuff about how to have a base xp for example for a creature from it's hit dice, and add some bonus/penalties based on the special abilities, equipments, is a boss/elite/etc. to add some flavor. Or, maybe even without going so far, just make some creature groups and create a sharts with base stats. Then the big work would be to add the creatures one by one in another shart and state what the creature is and what it should have maybe ? I d'ont know it just some random thinking, and i don't think i know enough to know what i should do, but i like to think about it !

 

Edit: i didn't see the post of @Chitown Willie.

 

That's amazing ! thank you for that. It's interesting to look after those columns, because it adds something that's working behind the scene and make some sense in all of that.

Edited July 15 by ptifab
typos

[Jarno Mikkola]

OK, so lets take a Greater Basilisk from the game, it has 80 hit points, 11 thac0, and it can petrify. Also it being a monstosious creature they have a 1d8 as their hit point dice. So that's an d20 creature.... 80/5 =20... the 1d8 is actually, as with EVERYTHING else, has an avarage of 4.5, but we can handwave that to a 5. And we get a 20th level creature +3 from petrification. So that's 23rd level creature, so that 3000 xp from the first 13 levels, and then we add the 10000 from the rest of the levels and uuh(13000xp), we gott a double amount that the game creature has. Which is 7000 xp ... it's in the pipe line.
Then we take the Lesser basilisk and lets see, it has 49 hit points, which is equal to 10 levels(9.8)+3 from petrification -and we got- a 13th level monster which woulld be 3000 xp, while the in game one is 1400 xp. About a half.

What ther others are like, will vary I am sure, but it's about there...

Edited July 15 by Jarno Mikkola

[Jarno Mikkola]

7 hours ago, ptifab said:

items revisions

Right, from the same makers, also come with summons like these:

On 4/2/2008 at 10:15 AM, Demivrgvs said:

Aerial Servant (16 Hit Dice):

STR 21, DEX 19, CON 17, INT 6, WIS 11, CHA 11; AL Neutral

HP 148, AC -1, THAC0 2, Saving Throws 4/6/5/4/7

2 Attacks Per Round, 2d6+11 Crushing Damage (Fist +2)Special Qualities:

Natural Invisibility: constantly invisible as if affected by an Improved Invisibility spell

Immune to hold, poison, sleep, & stun effects

Except that that's not a 16Hit Dice unit, but 148/5= 29.5~  meaning a 8d30 one. Meaning that it will kill everything and everyone it even goes against up the wazoo... and that's just the first random summon.