Are the multiclass kits under the hood just single-classed kits?

[RoyalProtector]

I received a report that some of my tweaks, which add a bonus to some items that apply only to single-classed Thieves,  applied to your Fighter/Assassin multiclass (the bonus is essentially an EFF channeled through an opcode 177 that targets THIEF, and not THIEF_ALL, essentially). Since my intent in making them single-classed bonuses is to reward specialization and for balance, I'm wondering if it applies somehow to your multiclass because it's under the hood a Thief Kit, which is concealed with UI edits.

Is this correct, or do you think something else might be the cause?

Thanks.

Edited October 9 by RoyalProtector

[subtledoctor]

The game engine can have kits for multiclasses.  Multiclasses are seen in many contexts as, rather than combinations of single classes, alternatives to single classes. They have their own identifier codes, their own HLA tables, their own proficiency advancement tables, etc.  

So you can make a kit and assign it to class # 7, and that kit will be available for fighter/mages but not for fighters and not for mages. Many mods have done this sort of thing for a long time already. You can also assign single-class kits to multiclass characters, like giving a fighter/mage the vanilla Kensai kit. In both cases, your class is 7 (fighter/mage) so script triggers will evaluate as true if they check class # 7 or class # 202 (MAGE_ALL) or class # 203 (FIGHTER_ALL). They will evaluate as false for checks against class # 1 (MAGE) and # 2 (FIGHTER). 

That’s if you do things the bog-standard way. Change the Kensai entry from 2 to 7 in KITLIST.2da and add its kitlist index to K_FM_HE.2da. No other modifications necessary. ToF seems to be doing something a bit more sophisticated, modifying the UI to accord with its kitted multiclasses. I don’t know if that particularly implicates class checks. But I am explaining the difference between this mod and others so that, if there is an issue, it can narrow down the area where the issue might lie. 

[RoyalProtector]

Disregard, actually, it was my fault. It seems I made this item tweak so long ago that I forgot what I had done with it!

Actually, regard, because I'm  so sleep deprived that I confused myself in the process of diagnosing the problem

Edited October 9 by RoyalProtector

[subtledoctor]

Also: it’s been a really long time since I looked into the details, but scripts vs. item/spell effects might handle CLASS.IDS detection differently. I have the vaguest recollection that the [CLASS]_ALL designation may be unreliable with certain checks. You might try multiple checks against the relevant class/multiclass variants, instead, and see if it functions differently.

Edited October 9 by subtledoctor

[DavidW]

On 10/9/2024 at 9:47 AM, RoyalProtector said:

I received a report that some of my tweaks, which add a bonus to some items that apply only to single-classed Thieves,  applied to your Fighter/Assassin multiclass (the bonus is essentially an EFF channeled through an opcode 177 that targets THIEF, and not THIEF_ALL, essentially). Since my intent in making them single-classed bonuses is to reward specialization and for balance, I'm wondering if it applies somehow to your multiclass because it's under the hood a Thief Kit, which is concealed with UI edits.

It's a straight multiclass kit, with class 9 (=Fighter/Thief) as its parent class. It doesn't use any UI magic as far as I can recall.

[RoyalProtector]

Strange. @DiesIrae you're certain that you received single-classed Thief bonuses from items?

[DiesIrae]

It appeared to be.

The values added seemed to be the value in the description for single class thief.

Unfortunately i can not check as my playthrough died (Nothing to do with ZSTweaks or TOF) as currently planning a reinstall. it may have possibly been an unforeseen/noticed mod conflict.

Will keep an eye out on the next set up

[RoyalProtector]

Just now, DiesIrae said:

It appeared to be.

The values added seemed to be the value in the description for single class thief.

Unfortunately i can not check as my playthrough died (Nothing to do with ZSTweaks or TOF) as currently planning a reinstall. it may have possibly been an unforeseen/noticed mod conflict.

Will keep an eye out on the next set up

Thank you.

[DiesIrae]

Would installing ZST after ToF be better for it recognising the classes?

[RoyalProtector]

1 minute ago, DiesIrae said:

Would installing ZST after ToF be better for it recognising the classes?

It wouldn't make any difference.

And I discourage doing that unless a component notes that it should be installed after other mods that tweak or overhaul the game.

Edited October 13 by RoyalProtector

[Isewein]

I have a conceptual question about multiclass kits: Where they offer additional abilites on a per-level-basis, do they count the active class only when dual-classed into or both active and inactive classes added up?

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Isewein said:

I have a conceptual question about multiclass kits: Where they offer additional abilites on a per-level-basis, do they count the active class only when dual-classed into or both active and inactive classes added up?

You would have to look at the code to be sure. If the mod uses ADD_KIT_EX, then it has to make a choice about which class is the 'primary' class, i.e. which one provides kit abilities at level-up.

I'm not sure if that answers the question, because I don't quite understand it - it is about multiclass kits, but asks about dual-classing. Does the mod give multiclass kits to dual-class characters? Dual-class characters should have single-class kits, no?

When I make a multiclass kit, I might make a "Eldritch Knight" as a fighter/mage, and set the special abilities to occur every three fighter levels. If someone dual-classed a fighter to mage and gave themselves that kit, then they would never get any of the special abilities as they advanced their mage levels. I don't know if ToF uses some special tricks to operate differently.

Edited November 20 by subtledoctor

[Isewein]

As far as I understand, the mod uses the same kits for multi and dual classes, hence the question.

[subtledoctor]

22 minutes ago, Isewein said:

As far as I understand, the mod uses the same kits for multi and dual classes, hence the question.

Huh. Well I glanced at the code and as usual, I can't make heads or tales of it. It uses high-level SSL that looks like Greek to me, it's hard to see how it translates into Weidu code being applied. But I think I see it in this case: in the files in the /kit/kits subfolder, each kit defines which class will have abilities applied or granted. If it works as I expect, then the answer stands: you will only get abilities when leveling up in the primary class. If you dual away from the primary class into the secondary class, no more abilities for that kit.

Edited November 20 by subtledoctor

[Isewein]

Thanks, that sounds just about right. If it's Greek to you, it's Japanese to me, so I'll take your word for it.