Spell Abilities vs. Effects

[MindTyrant]

Here I am yet again with another question 

I am creating a kit, and at one level it grants 3 abilities.  A few levels later, it removes those 3 abilities and replaces them with 3 upgraded versions.  I am doing the removal of the now dated 3 abilities via applied spell with 3 corresponding Opcode 172s, before adding the 3 upgraded abilities through granted ability.  My question is whether the applied removal spell (Opcode 172) should be a spell ability or [global] effect on the applied spell? 

Note that I am aware that that the Opcode 172 will probably work either way.  I just want to know what the best practice is.  As always, all advice is appreciated!

[lynx]

clab files support the RA_ prefix to remove abilities, but it might be only available only in iwd2, I'm not sure. It would simplify things, but other than that, I don't think it matters if you put it into the global list or the payload list with target self.

[jmerry]

The other option here is to, rather than swapping out the abilities, use spells that have multiple different level-dependent abilities. Like how thief traps work. You can't do everything with them, but for a simple "upgrade at level N" setup ...

[MindTyrant]

13 hours ago, jmerry said:

The other option here is to, rather than swapping out the abilities, use spells that have multiple different level-dependent abilities. Like how thief traps work. You can't do everything with them, but for a simple "upgrade at level N" setup ...

Looking at other clabs, I am not sure how this works.  I see how you can enter a second (or third, or fourth...) ability, but do not know if you need to change any parameters for this ability to replace the lower-level ability as opposed to being in addition to it.  I hope this makes sense. 

Also, do I need to grant the power again so the level change gets evaluated?  I see this with Kensai and their attack speed increases.  I assume that they entered AP_SPCL143 into clab file every 4 levels on top of having multiple entries for spell abilities because it was necessary.  Is this an example of what @jmerrydescribed?  If so, how would this change for a granted ability?

Edited October 15 by MindTyrant

[jmerry]

The parameter that controls which ability is used is "Minimum Level". Every spell should have one ability with "Minimum Level" equal to 1, and then may have more abilities at higher levels. To quote the IESDP on the SPL format:

Quote

Extended headers represent the effects of a spell on the target. Multiple extended headers can be set in a spell, to allow the spell to use effects based on the level of the caster. Extended headers should be in the file in order of increasing level

Basically, it goes through the abilities in order; the last one for which caster level matches or exceeds "Minimum level" is used. It's exactly the same system that mage and priest spells used to have effects depending on caster level. Only if it's an innate spell, that caster level is simply the caster's overall level.

Also, when I mentioned thief snares ... that one's a bit more complicated, because the multiple abilities are actually in the secondary spell. The primary spell sets a trap which casts the secondary spell, and that secondary spell has different effects based on caster level. For a simpler example, look at paladin Lay On Hands (SPCL211, in BGEE/BG2EE).

2 hours ago, MindTyrant said:

Also, do I need to grant the power again so it will evaluate the level change? 

For something that you will be casting, like a paladin's Lay On Hands, no. You don't need to grant the power again unless you want to give the character additional uses of the ability.

Passive abilities that use the "AP_" prefix to be applied to the character do require additional applications if they improve as level increases. A monk's magic resistance has separate AP_ entries in the CLAB at every level from 14 to 26, for example. Basically, those AP_ entries are only applied when the character gains that level (or joins the party with that many levels already), and the effects are fixed based on circumstances back then; no matter how long you play, that level 1 AP_ effect won't be cast again.

[MindTyrant]

@jmerry, thank you so much!  Now I understand why AP_SPCL143 was entered multiple times in the kensai's clab.  I reimplemented now as a multi-level ability as you suggested, and it appears to have worked!  Additionally, this really simplified many aspects of the mod.  Everything interacts with its granted powers and now I have less to work with!

[kjeron]

Just know that given abilities ( GA_ ) will suffer/benefit from the innate/character-level being averaged with Dual-Classed characters.

Applied abilities (AP_) will use the correct class level when applied during leveling up/chargen.

[jmerry]

Hmm ... that actually sounds test-worthy. All right, a test of how innate caster level is calculated for AP_ abilities. Specifically, I'll use kensai weapon speed as that's the only spell for which it actually matters without mods. The spell grants +1 speed at caster level 1, +2 at caster level 4, +3 at caster level 8, +4 at caster level 12, and so on. It is applied by the kensai CLAB at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, and so on. The opcode (190) is non-stacking; while multiple instances can pile up, only the most recently applied matters. So do some dual-class stuff, make saves, and inspect them in NI.

- Level 7 kensai, generated at the start of SoA as the party's second member. Two instances of opcode 190, both with value 2. (Innate caster level 7)

- Level 7 kensai, dual to thief 1. No instances of opcode 190. (Kensai abilities deactivated)

- Grant 160K XP. Increase thief level to 10, all at once. Two instances of opcode 190, both with value 3. (Innate caster level 8.5, rounded up to 9)

- Grant 3.5M XP. Increase thief level to 25. Two instances of opcode 190, both with value 3. (No new instances of the effect, since no kensai levels were gained)

- Reform the party. Remove the kensai->thief and then let them rejoin. Two instances of opcode 190, both with value 5. (Innate caster level 16)

Conclusion: AP_ spells are applied when the level is gained in normal gameplay or character creation, when a dual class completes and restores abilities, and when a character rejoins the party after leaving it. They use the character's caster level, which in the case of innate spells is the average of class levels. If multiple levels are taken at once, the final level is used in all calculations.

Most of the time, when it matters, that innate caster level will simply be the character's level. You can't dual into a kit in the standard rules, and very few such effects actually care about caster level. But there are exceptions.

[lynx]

You can dual into a kit in bg1 — into specialist mages.

The clabs will also be applied if AddKit or AddSuperKit is used.