Casting (Character) Level

[MindTyrant]

First, please understand that I am talking about how the game engine determines a character's level for modding purposes, not what the character level is game purposes.  This is important nuance for multi-class characters.  What level does it think my fighter/mage is at 8,100,000 experience points?  I know it splits experience between both classes, so 4,050,000 for each class.  I know that makes my character fighter 17/mage 15.  But if I cast a mage spell, am I level 15? Level 17?  Level 16 for item abilities?  

I noticed that for the fighter/mage HLA table, several abilities, like Improved Alacrity - SPWI921.spl have value of 32 for MIN_LEV column.  Yet single class mages never reach 32, and I think fighter/mage never cross 20 in their mage level.  Does this mean Improved Alacrity is unattainable?  Just trying to understand so I can mod appropriately.

[jmerry]

The game keeps track of three caster levels.

- Your arcane caster level is your mage level, your sorcerer, your bard level, or 1 if you have none of those classes.

- Your divine caster level is your cleric level, your druid level, your shaman level, your ranger level minus 7, your paladin level minus 8, or 1. Ranger/clerics always use the cleric level here. (BG series here; IWD allows paladin/ranger casting earlier, and presumably cuts their caster level less.)

- Your innate caster level is the average of your levels in all of your classes.

So, using your example, a fighter 17/mage 15 would have an arcane caster level of 15, an innate caster level of 16, and a divine caster level of 1. If you cast one of your mage spells, that's at caster level 15. If you cast Dispel Magic from Bala's Axe, that's a divine spell so it has caster level 1. If you cast your HLA Hardiness, that's an innate spell at caster level 16.

I don't know what's going on with those MIN_LEV numbers, but the only actual level restrictions on HLAs are that for the spell HLAs, you have to have spell slots of that level. Priest spell HLAs can't be taken unless you have at least one level 7 divine slot, and mage spell HLAs can't be taken unless you have at least one level 9 arcane spell slot.

Edited November 6 by jmerry

[MindTyrant]

3 hours ago, jmerry said:

I don't know what's going on with those MIN_LEV numbers, but the only actual level restrictions on HLAs are that for the spell HLAs, you have to have spell slots of that level. Priest spell HLAs can't be taken unless you have at least one level 7 divine slot, and mage spell HLAs can't be taken unless you have at least one level 9 arcane spell slot.

Here are the contents of LUFM0.2DA, the fighter/mage HLA file:

2DA V1.0
*
        ABILITY       ICON        STRREF    MIN_LEV   MAX_LEVEL  NUM_ALLOWED  PREREQUISITE EXCLUDED_BY   ALIGNMENT_RESTRICT
1       GA_SPCL900     *          *         1         99         20           *            *             *
2       GA_SPCL901     *          *         1         99         20           GA_SPCL900   *             *
3       GA_SPCL902     *          *         1         99         20           *            *             *
4       GA_SPCL903     *          *         1         99         20           GA_SPCL902   *             *
5       GA_SPCL904     *          *         1         99         20           *            *             *
6       GA_SPCL906     *          *         1         99         20           *            *             *
7       GA_SPCL905     *          *         1         99         20           GA_SPCL906   *             *
8       GA_SPCL909     *          *         1         99         1            GA_SPCL905   *             *
9       GA_SPCL908     *          *         1         99         20           *            *             *
10      GA_SPCL907     *          *         1         99         20           *            *             *
11      AP_SPCL928     *          *         1         99         1            *            *             *
12      AP_SPCL929     *          *         1         99         1            AP_SPCL928   *             *
13      AP_SPCL930     *          *         1         99         1            AP_SPCL929   *             *
14      GA_SPWI920     *          *         32        99         1            *            *             *
15      GA_SPWI921     *          *         32        99         1            *            *             *
16      GA_SPWI922     *          *         32        99         1            *            *             *
17      GA_SPWI923     *          *         32        99         1            *            GA_SPWI924    ALL_EVIL
18      GA_SPWI924     *          *         32        99         1            *            GA_SPWI923    ALL_GOOD
19      GA_SPWI925     *          *         32        99         1            *            *             *
20         *           *          *         *         *          *            *            *             *
21         *           *          *         *         *          *            *            *             *
22         *           *          *         *         *          *            *            *             *
23         *           *          *         *         *          *            *            *             *
24         *           *          *         *         *          *            *            *             *

As you can see, the six granted abilities at the bottom have an MIN_LEV of 32, and as I mentioned before, single class mages let alone fighter/mages never reach that level. So I do not understand what this column, MIN_LEV, is.  Interestingly, I do not see anything regarding spell level slot on the chart.

[jmerry]

Yes, I am perfectly capable of looking up the tables in NI. Interpreting them ... well, the obvious interpretation of that column is obviously wrong. Level 20/18 doesn't match to 32 no matter how you look at it. Which leaves ... all right, try the IESDP.

Quote

The fifth column is the minimum level the character must be to be able to select this HLA.

Well, that didn't help.

[subtledoctor]

I don’t recall exactly, but this was explained to me once. Short answer is, HLA tables are weird and a bit half-baked because ToB was rushed, so they just made it work and shipped it, without leaving things in a state that is easy to disentangle by modders. 

The MIN_LEV value in HLA tables does not actually set a min level per se; that after all is done in LUNUMAB.2da, which controls when you get access. That’s why the MIN_LEV value for fighter innates is 1. 

But mage & cleric HLAs are spells, not abilities, so the key thing is they should not go into your spellbook until you have access to a particular spell level. For single-class casters, again, this doesn’t matter, it is handled by LUNUMAB. But for multiclass casters LUNUMAB covers single-class advancement but the MIN_LEVEL is attached to total class levels. Why, I don’t know. But basically 1) the field is only there for multiclasses, and 2) it shows something like the total number of levels in all classes before you can get an HLA. 

It is weird. I’ve modded HLAs with minimum levels before, but it is difficult and not super reliable. If you want a better answer than “this part if the engine is weird and not very suitable for modding,” then you will need to give more precise questions about what exactly you want to do. 

[MindTyrant]

Not to revive a sleeping post, could someone answer how the game handles rounding for innate casters? Suppose I was Fighter 11/Mage 12, is my innate casting level 11 or 12?

Sorry for asking so much, I am just now learning the CLUA console, and I do not really have a lot of save files to test with.  

[MindTyrant]

I just managed to test that Fighter 9/Mage 10 counts as innate 10, so it rounds up.  Please let me know if this matches everyone's experience.

[jmerry]

It does. And that's rounded up even if the excess is 1/3; a F9/M9/T10 with 500K total XP has innate caster level 10.

Also, don't worry about reviving old posts. Around here, necromancy is a perfectly legitimate school of magic

Edited November 25 by jmerry