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SixOfSpades

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Overall: YEAH, BABY, YEAH! That said, I do have some thoughts....

 

 

CLERICS: According to Ghreyfain in the Ashes of Embers forum, the spells restricted to specific Cleric kits suffer from the following problem:

"Due to engine limitations, the restricted spells can’t be removed from the spell book, but will be removed from your memory if you memorize them. A warning string will tell you if this happens, but this list will also help."

Now, he said that back in March 2004, and I haven't seen any mention of that in Divine Remix, so does it turn out that this 'hardcoded' impossibility was surmountable after all?

 

 

DRUIDS: The Oozemaster is, frankly, overpowered. Abilities and immunities that would seem more fitting for ToB-level characters are compressed into a SoA timeframe. A Level 7 Druid that can take out an entire Beholder Hive? I suggest making the Oozemaster's progress much more gradual: Make their Shapeshift ability go through many successively stronger forms, starting at Gray Ooze or some such, rather than jumping right in with the Mustard Jelly. Their immunities to Acid and Poison could also be slowly built up, as opposed to suddenly springing into being. Also, with everything happening in Levels 1-15, there's no incentive to remain an Oozemaster--might as well Dual at Level 15 (though I think the CHA penalty prevents this). Also, Jellies are immune to Backstab (as they have no "back"), not Critical Hits.

 

I also find the ethos of the kit so similar to the Gray Druid ( http://www.coryj.net/CoreRule/corerule.php?page=DD05035.htm ) that I was a bit surprised to see that it had a different name. Of course, the "Granted Powers" and "Special Limitations" listed in this online sourcebook are rather minimal, so you're well justified in saying that the abilities and restrictions you've added (immune to Stun, decaying Charisma, etc.) to make the kit distinctive and playable in BG2 validate the change of name.

 

I was also surprised that Remix's only added Druid kit was the Oozemaster, seeing as how I thought the Hivemaster was just begging to be made, especially with Pai'Na already in-game. My suggested setup:

 

HIVEMASTER

 

Class: Druid

Race: Human, Half-Elf

Alignment: TN

 

     A Hivemaster typically lives to foster insectoid and arachnid life wherever it exists. Most low-level Hivemasters work as beekeepers or the like. Many attempt to instill insectoid virtues in those around them, such as patience, hard work, close cooperation, and allegiance to the greater community. Some higher-level Hivemasters even attempt to influence human societies to adopt a communal pattern modeled on that of hive insects. Others--often styling themselves Webmasters--take on the patient, deadly personas of predatory arachnids, or insects such as the dragonfly, ruthlessly hunting down (or lying in wait to trap) the enemies of the druidic order. A Hivemaster's grove usually centers around the dwelling place of the creature for which the druid has the greatest affinity: A forest full of spiderwebs, a field of butterflies, etc. Holy symbols commonly used by Hivemasters are such things as abandoned wasp nests and molted exoskeletons.

 

ADVANTAGES:

* Immune to Insect spells and Web

* -2 bonus to Save vs. Death

* Once per day may cast Cocoon: For one turn, the Hivemaster is enveloped in a thick, fibrous shield that absorbs 90% of all damage and magic inflicted. The Hivemaster regenerates 1 hitpoint per round while in this cocoon, but is completely muffled and cannot attack, move, see, or cast any spells. Cocoon takes an entire round to cast.

* Once per day per 7 levels can cast Hive Mind: All enemy insects or insectlike creatures (Spiders, Carrion Crawlers, Ankhegs, and Umber Hulks) within 30 feet of the Hivemaster are Charmed, with no regard for the creature's Magic Resistance, and a +4 penalty to their Saving Throw. This effect lasts for 12 rounds. Also, all friendly creatures in the area of effect become immune to Charm and Insect spells for the next 8 rounds.

* At Level 7, gains the ability to Shapeshift into a Sword Spider once per day for every 7 levels of experience.

* Gains access to to the Wizard spells of Web, Spider Spawn, and Carrion Summons, cast as Priest spells of equivalent level.

 

DISADVANTAGES:

* +1 penalty to THAC0 every 6 levels (stops after Level 18)

* +1 penalty to Save vs. Polymorph, Breath Weapon, Wands, and Spells

* Loses other Druid Shapeshifting abilities

* Loses access to the following spells: Charm Person or Mammal, Hold Animal, Animal Summoning I, Call Woodland Beings, Animal Summoning II, Animal Summoning III, and Conjure Animals.

I'm aware that this design is currently a bit overpowered, especially by abusing Cocoon in situations where the party can fight on the defensive. But I'm confident that Remix's use of the spell spheres can balance this out by denying Hivemasters high-level spells from spheres like Healing, which would be wasted on an insect.

 

I have another Druid kit idea, the Wild Man, but the description and implementation appear to be rather ugly.

 

 

PALADINS: In one of the more volatile threads on Pocket Plane recently,

( http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php/to....html#msg263255 )

I seem to have proven that there can be such things as Paladins of Evil gods. Needless to say, this would have far-reaching consequences for such things as Carsomyr, the concept of Falling, and possible Neutral and Evil paths through the Paladin Stronghold. While I stress that I have no specific plans to propose any immediate changes to the Paladin class (apart from rebalancing the kits so that the plain Paladin is no longer left sobbing in the dust), threads of design are beginning to come together--most notably the introduction of Paladins of specific gods (Hoar, Loviator, and Mystra may be in the offing), and the opening up of those kits based on abilities (such as the Inquisitor) to other alignments. The Holy Liberator must be carefully considered as well.

 

Grim Squeaker, I expect to hear from you on this one. :)

 

 

RANGERS: As I learned in the aforementioned thread, in 3rd Edition rules, Rangers are now allowed to be of any alignment. Previous statements about Falling, and Strongholds, apply here as well.

If the Bowslinger is simply going to be a correction of the Archer's mistakes (such as not allowing Grandmastery in Darts and Slings), why create a whole new kit? Why not just rebalance the Archer?

Adding variations of the Wizard Slayer and Berserker kits to the Ranger class (as the Archer was carried over to the Fighter class) would make loads of sense, especially if there were optional components to give Valygar and Minsc those kits.

The phrase "Can only be proficient with" in the Disadvantages section is potentially misleading: Is the Feralan / Forest Runner / Wilderness Runner allowed to place two proficiency points in all weapons not specifically named, or none? I would use the phrasing "Limited to a single proficiency point in" instead.

 

I have an idea for a Ranger kit, the Journeyman, but I can't submit it because it's what the Bard should have been (by which I mean it renders the entire Bard class obsolete).

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PALADINS: In one of the more volatile threads on Pocket Plane recently,

( http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php/to....html#msg263255 )

I seem to have proven that there can be such things as Paladins of Evil gods.

Erm...no. Paladins have to be Lawful Good and can't serve evil gods. I'm not sure where you're thinking you've proven they can...but I'm sure not seeing it.

 

Holy warriors of evil gods are called Blackguards in 3ed; BG2 seems to use "anti-paladin" (with all representatives of the class being githyanki) instead. But actual paladins, in 1ed, 2ed, 3ed, or BG, always have to be Lawful Good.

 

(And no, my Holy Liberator kit isn't an argument to the contrary--Holy Liberators are a 3ed prestige class, which was simplest to translate into BG2 as a paladin kit, but the kit description still indicates that the Holy Liberator is something different from a true paladin.)

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Might as well post this hear, I think that Viconia should have a reaction to Silverstar's of Selune, they are her goddess' and therefore her enemies, technically. I think she'd let them save her, but then turn on them. That's all, keep up the great work guys!

 

SK

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When it comes to Paladins, I'm not really intending to have different kits for different gods, as its not an enormous difference. To my knowledge the spell spheres are the same. It'd be like having different god kits for fighters. What the paladin kits I'm working on will be like are the BG2 ones only a bit more so (not as in unbalanced, in theory). What they'll be is specialising of the paladin, usually into some other branch of the order e.g. Knight of the Chalice, Hunter of the Dead.

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Even ignoring the debate over whether an evil holy warrior would be a "paladin", evil or even neutral paladin kits simply won't work due to the limitations of the Infinity Engine - they'll automatically fall. Countless people have tried to find a workaround, but without much success.

 

Some of the cleric kits (both current and planned) fit the "evil holy warrior" description pretty well, IMHO.

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Overall: YEAH, BABY, YEAH! That said, I do have some thoughts....

:)

 

CLERICS: According to Ghreyfain in the Ashes of Embers forum, the spells restricted to specific Cleric kits suffer from the following problem:

"Due to engine limitations, the restricted spells can’t be removed from the spell book, but will be removed from your memory if you memorize them.  A warning string will tell you if this happens, but this list will also help."

Now, he said that back in March 2004, and I haven't seen any mention of that in Divine Remix, so does it turn out that this 'hardcoded' impossibility was surmountable after all?

Solving this was a major problem, and required a big overhaul of the system. What we ended up doing was altering every cleric spell to not be a cleric spell so that they wouldn't be added to spellbooks automatically. The spells are actually added as kit abilities (the same way the Stalker gets his mage spells) to the spellbook. This is why you see a massive Gain Ability: Foo flood when you hit a new (spellcasting) level. The two main drawbacks are that spells added by other mods are currently unaccounted for, since we have to explicitly add spells to each kit (including the base class) and that kits added after DR won't have any spellcasting at all.

 

DRUIDS: The Oozemaster is, frankly, overpowered. Abilities and immunities that would seem more fitting for ToB-level characters are compressed into a SoA timeframe. A Level 7 Druid that can take out an entire Beholder Hive? I suggest making the Oozemaster's progress much more gradual: Make their Shapeshift ability go through many successively stronger forms, starting at Gray Ooze or some such, rather than jumping right in with the Mustard Jelly. Their immunities to Acid and Poison could also be slowly built up, as opposed to suddenly springing into being. Also, with everything happening in Levels 1-15, there's no incentive to remain an Oozemaster--might as well Dual at Level 15 (though I think the CHA penalty prevents this). Also, Jellies are immune to Backstab (as they have no "back"), not Critical Hits.

I'll let Andy tackle this one.

 

I was also surprised that Remix's only added Druid kit was the Oozemaster, seeing as how I thought the Hivemaster was just begging to be made, especially with Pai'Na already in-game. My suggested setup:

 

Don't worry, we've got plenty more druid kits planned. V2 was planned mainly as a bugfix release, but since Andy and Nick had the new kits ready, they made it in this release as well. Thanks for the Hivemaster and Gray Druid, will take a look.

 

PALADINS: In one of the more volatile threads on Pocket Plane recently,

( http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php/to....html#msg263255 )

I seem to have proven that there can be such things as Paladins of Evil gods. Needless to say, this would have far-reaching consequences for such things as Carsomyr, the concept of Falling, and possible Neutral and Evil paths through the Paladin Stronghold. While I stress that I have no specific plans to propose any immediate changes to the Paladin class (apart from rebalancing the kits so that the plain Paladin is no longer left sobbing in the dust), threads of design are beginning to come together--most notably the introduction of Paladins of specific gods (Hoar, Loviator, and Mystra may be in the offing), and the opening up of those kits based on abilities (such as the Inquisitor) to other alignments. The Holy Liberator must be carefully considered as well.

Yeah, Kish already addressed this--paladins are specifically LG. This doesn't mean we won't try something like Blackguards or other 'paladin-equivalents'.

 

The biggest problem we're facing with the ranger and paladin kits is the hardcoded system of falling. Non-good rangers and paladins would still be subject to falling, which is truly idiotic for evil kits. (There's a reason Wes made his anti-paladin a fighter kit. :party: ) We'll see if we can overcome this.

 

The phrase "Can only be proficient with" in the Disadvantages section is potentially misleading: Is the Feralan / Forest Runner / Wilderness Runner allowed to place two proficiency points in all weapons not specifically named, or none? I would use the phrasing "Limited to a single proficiency point in" instead.

I'll let Nick address the Bowslinger question; the phrasing suggestion is a good one. Unless otherwise noted, the ranger kits have the standard restrictions of 2 pips in everything (3 in dual-wielding).

 

I have an idea for a Ranger kit, the Journeyman, but I can't submit it because it's what the Bard should have been (by which I mean it renders the entire Bard class obsolete).

You'd make Andy cry.

 

Might as well post this hear, I think that Viconia should have a reaction to Silverstar's of Selune, they are her goddess' and therefore her enemies, technically. I think she'd let them save her, but then turn on them. That's all, keep up the great work guys!

One of the things I'd like to focus on for future versions is more roleplaying material--various temples and characters reacting to your character, enemy clerics mixing in some special abilities in their atack scripts, and, eventually, new and appropriate strongholds/quests for the new kits. Currently, the only content added is a brief acknowledgement of your kit in the temple stronghold quests.

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If they weren't able to place any points in other weapons, their disadvantages would include "cannot be proficient with...", as it does with the bowslinger. That said, I'll replace the word "be" with "become" and add how many points it is in brackets, since that's what the archer's description uses ("can only become proficient (one point) in melee weapons").

 

The bowslinger is meant to be the elven equivalent to the human and half-elf archer, so it certainly isn't intended to replace it. On a side note, "can only achieve high mastery with any ranged weapon" is wrong, since they can obviously only achieve it with bows. I'll be sure to fix this too.

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Cam, you say that '...spells added by other mods are currently unaccounted for, since we have to explicitly add spells to each kit (including the base class) .'

 

What about mods installed before DR that don't actually add new spells, but modify existing ones? I'm particularly fond of the Altered Spells in Oversight and the BG1 Summoning Spells from Tutu Fix (Sim and Ghrey are apparently working on including this in AoE for BG2 usage, so the question is relevant to both Tutu and BG2). Will these modified spells still work in their new form if DR is installed last?

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Modifications are fine--we patch in the flags that say 'this is not a cleric spell anymore' and nothing else. If the file name is the same, the spell will be fine and unmolested by DR. So yes, Oversight's spell changes and the Summoning changes will atill be fine.

 

I was trying to address something like TDD, which introduces a grip of new cleric spells. At present, we don't account for these, though we've been aware of the compatibility issues since the early CR betas. Now that we've achieved stability, we can start to concentrate on extended interoperability with other mods.

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Modifications are fine--we patch in the flags that say 'this is not a cleric spell anymore' and nothing else. If the file name is the same, the spell will be fine and unmolested by DR. So yes, Oversight's spell changes and the Summoning changes will atill be fine.

 

I was trying to address something like TDD, which introduces a grip of new cleric spells. At present, we don't account for these, though we've been aware of the compatibility issues since the early CR betas. Now that we've achieved stability, we can start to concentrate on extended interoperability with other mods.

 

That's great to hear. I must say that I'm very impressed with how compatible DR is (provided it's the last mod installed).

 

I used to have Refinements installed last, so if I install Refs last-but-one and then DR last, I'm assuming I'll get the Refs HLAs for non-divine classes and the DR HLAs for clerics, druids, rangers and paladins. Will this mix of Refs and DR HLAs work fine alongside each other (I'm aware that only one mods HLAs can be active for each class/kit)?

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Actually, we only mess with the HLAs for clerics and druids, so rangers and paladins will still get their Refinements HLAs. We do modify all of the multi-classes that involve clerics and druids (c/m, c/r, c/f, c/t, d/f, c/f/m), however. Our HLA changes are actually fairly minimal--we impose sphere restrictions and a few kits have a unique HLA.

 

To their immense credit, the Refinements team was fairly proactive in contacting us about compatibility, but we weren't really ready yet--we were still trying to get CR not to suck at the time.

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I never tried CR, and part of me wishes I had done. Still, that does at least mean that I get the full effect of DR goodness. It's nice to see that by installing Refs then DR, I'll get the best of both mods.

 

Oh, and SoS, it's always a pleasure to read your feeback on stuff, be it DR or any other mod.

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PALADINS: Well, since the engine was apparently designed without any regard for such concepts as a non-Good Paladin or Ranger, this idea will have to be dropped. But that doesn't mean that the concept itself is bogus--for the sake of not turning this thread into an Evil-Paladin rant (and we all know how easily that can happen), I'd like to direct any further comments on the matter to the Pocket Plane thread I listed in the first post.

 

Erm...no.  Paladins have to be Lawful Good and can't serve evil gods.  I'm not sure where you're thinking you've proven they can...but I'm sure not seeing it.

BG2 seems to use "anti-paladin" (with all representatives of the class being githyanki) instead.  But actual paladins, in 1ed, 2ed, 3ed, or BG, always have to be Lawful Good.

Sorry to say it, but you're sounding just like Lord Kain, and you're also not making any points that he didn't: You just hold up the rulebooks and say "no," without saying why not, which is precisely my point: "Why not?" Explain to me why Evil and Neutral gods are willing to grant divine spellcasting abilities to Priests but not Warriors, and then you'll actually be answering my question.

 

(And no, my Holy Liberator kit isn't an argument to the contrary--Holy Liberators are a 3ed prestige class, which was simplest to translate into BG2 as a paladin kit, but the kit description still indicates that the Holy Liberator is something different from a true paladin.)

Precisely. I don't care what they're called, I don't care if they fit the exact same standards of Lawful Good Judeo-Christian morality that is the canon Paladin's heart and soul, I just want to see Warriors whose spellcasting power and special abilities are granted by, and with a highly disciplined set of behaviors designed to be most pleasing to, a god of Neutral or Evil alignment.

 

 

When it comes to Paladins, I'm not really intending to have different kits for different gods, as its not an enormous difference.  To my knowledge the spell spheres are the same.

Really? It seems to me that, since Ilmater and Lathander have very little in common (at least their portfolios don't), Paladins who have dedicated their service to those deities shouldn't either. Why not adjust the spell spheres of kitted Paladins to reflect the focus of their chosen church or profession? That's one obvious way to make the pureclass Paladin a viable gaming option again.

 

 

Some of the cleric kits (both current and planned) fit the "evil holy warrior" description pretty well, IMHO.

Not if they're not actual Warriors, they don't. Sure, the ethos fits, but your ethos doesn't count for diddly-squat when you're at 3 hitpoints and the Dragon's breathing down your neck. Power-wise, a Cleric will simply get his ass creamed by a Paladin, who in turn is slightly less potent than a Fighter/Cleric (and of course, the Ranger/Cleric trumps all--more on that a bit lower down)....all I'm after is a way to give servants of Neutral and Evil gods a way to actually hit things, without forcing them to be Human (Priest of Foo->Fighter) or sacrificing their individuality (generic Fighter/Cleric).

 

 

RANGERS: Divine Remix may have already brought the Ranger/Cleric back in line with its D&D counterpart, in that Druid-only spells beyond Level 3 are not available to the character (No Insect Plague for you!), thus giving the R/C a much-needed pull a few rungs down the powergaming ladder. If, however, this has not yet been done, can it be?

 

The bowslinger is meant to be the elven equivalent to the human and half-elf archer, so it certainly isn't intended to replace it. On a side note, "can only achieve high mastery with any ranged weapon" is wrong, since they can obviously only achieve it with bows. I'll be sure to fix this too.

Umm....Elves can already take the existing Archer class just fine. Rather than create two practically identical versions of the same slightly flawed kit, I would simply correct the flaws (allowing Grandmastery in all missile weapons, but crippling their spellcasting to compensate for their power), and leave it to the player to do the roleplaying (Elven Archers get Bows, Dwarves get Crossbows, Halflings get Slings, etc).

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There seems to be some misunderstanding over the term paladin. A paladin is, rather specifically, lawful good, with divine spellcasting abilities. Non-LG gods can grant spells to warriors, it's just that they're not called paladins. A Blackguard is, rather specifically, chaotic evil, with divine spellcasting abilities. It's not that non-LG gods don't have their ranks of elite, divine spellcasting warriors, simply that they are called something else.

 

Someone had posted the list of terms by alignment for these holy warriors back on the old Interplay boards, which are of course gone. Googling, I found this list which I believe is correct:

 

LG - Paladin

NG - Sentinel

CG - Avenger

LN - Enforcer

TN - Incarnate

CN - Anarch

LE - Despot

NE - Corrupter

CE - Blackguard

 

It's tricky, because most folks use paladin to mean both the LG paladin and the holy warrior concept, muddying the waters a great deal. Kish's Holy Liberator is, strictly speaking, an Avenger and not a Paladin.

 

edit: Source for this was old Dragon magazines. If someone has something more definitive on the titles... :)

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There seems to be some misunderstanding over the term paladin. A paladin is, rather specifically, lawful good, with divine spellcasting abilities. Non-LG gods can grant spells to warriors, it's just that they're not called paladins. A Blackguard is, rather specifically, chaotic evil, with divine spellcasting abilities. It's not that non-LG gods don't have their ranks of elite, divine spellcasting warriors, simply that they are called something else.

 

Someone had posted the list of terms by alignment for these holy warriors back on the old Interplay boards, which are of course gone. Googling, I found this list which I believe is correct:

 

LG - Paladin

NG - Sentinel

CG - Avenger

LN - Enforcer

TN - Incarnate

CN - Anarch

LE - Despot

NE - Corrupter

CE - Blackguard

 

It's tricky, because most folks use paladin to mean both the LG paladin and the holy warrior concept, muddying the waters a great deal. Kish's Holy Liberator is, strictly speaking, an Avenger and not a Paladin.

 

edit: Source for this was old Dragon magazines. If someone has something more definitive on the titles... :)

Well, in 3ed, a Blackguard can be any evil alignment. :party: I don't know anything about old Dragon magazines.

 

And whether a "holy warrior" is actually a paladin is not something to be waved aside here. There is no reason why a Blackguard should be able to use Carsomyr. Neutral or evil paths through the paladin stronghold would still be inappropriate; the Order of the Radiant Heart makes no claims of embracing all holy warriors (indeed, if someone somehow modded a Blackguard kit into the game, I'd suggest instead that one of the Blackguard stronghold quests should involve trashing the Order of the Radiant Heart, and paladins should also, at some point in their stronghold quests--just before going after Firkraag, or just after?--be sent to destroy the Blackguard stronghold).

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