Scrolls Usage/Potions Tweak

[Andyr]

The 2DA files and manual both state that there is an INT requirement for high-level mage spells, but with ToB (not sure without) they are wrong; there is no requirement.

 

I'm guessing it is to appease the powerplayers who would then only take Edwin, as the only INT 18 mage.

[trance1881]

OK well i have read this post and everyone makes good points and i have an idea istead of making a requirement. How about this in the G3 tweaks the component that allows spellcasting with armor there is a an increased chance of miscasting a spell. why not implement that into the normal spellcasting. for instance, lets say an npc that is a mage with a an intelligence of 15 has a 30 percent of miscasting a level 7 spell a 40 percent chance of miscasting a level 8 spell and 50percent chance for a level 9. In my opinion a mage shouldnt be unable to cast a certain level spell if their intelligence is not high enough because they are a mage this is their expertise, unless they are completely dumb and have an intelligence that of minsc.

[Salk]

I push myself further with a summary of what I would really welcome as an important change:

 

A first level Mage (example) is, of a matter of fact, able to cast from a scroll (that would just be destroyed in the process like when the Mage tries and learns it) spells of levels that are way beyond the Magic Practitioner's present capacity. This is not coherent.

 

So I'd like to conform the scroll usage to the Progression Table to make the magic system much more logical and consistent!

 

I believe it's also wrong to let a Mage learn "in advance" spells that he could not grasp. In fact, if I find a scroll of "Wish", let's say, and am only level 2, I can still learn it (although not memorize yet) and that doesn't make sense.

 

Instead, I should learn a spell or cast it from a scroll ONLY if I fulfill the Level/Intelligence requirements (Progression Table).

 

So, example, the spell "Wish" (9th Level) on a scroll, could be learned eller triggered ONLY if the Mage has at least Intelligence 18 AND at the same time be of level 18. Coherently with this, a Bard should never be allowed to cast or learn from a scroll spells that he would *never* comprehend (all 7 spells and beyond).

 

What do you think ?

[Salk]

trance1881,

 

I don't agree. This should be a requirements (and however, I think of it as a tweak so something optional that I would absolutely choose) because a mage should instead be unable of casting higher level spells. The fact that Magic is a mage's expertise doesn't matter.

 

Not all mages are the same. Experience and supernatural minds should be privileged. Mages that are "less good" and or "expert" shouldn't be given the chance of learning or casting spells that are beyond their present comprehension.

 

This seems to me so all logical that I really wonder why it's never been implemented from the beginning...

[NiGHTMARE]

trance1881: nice idea in theory, but I'm afraid it wouldn't really be possible to implement.

 

Salk: scrolls of 7th level and higher could easily be made unusable by bards, but are you also suggesting that scrolls of 1st-6th level should have different intelligent requirements depending on the character's class? If so, the only way to accomplish this would be to make all wizard scrolls unusable by bards, and introduce "bard scrolls".

[CamDawg]

Hold on a minute--I'm trying to jive this with what I remember from PnP.

 

The difficulty in spell scrolls was in the creation: it took a mage of a certain level, time, expense, etc. to successfully scribe scrolls. The whole point of the effort and expense of scribing them was exactly so that virtually anyone (with the aforementioned chance of failure) could use them. An analogy would be a spell sequencer or contingency (PnP, not the BG2 version). You spend an inordinate amount of time in preparation for a return in combat.

[Salk]

NiGHTMARE,

 

yes, I did mean to make 7th level Scrolls or higher never available to Bards.

But also should Bards be unable to transcribe a scroll or use it even if they have not the requirements. Not only Bards of course but also Mages.

 

I am just trying to implement for the scroll usage the same requirements that the AD&D 2ed rules set in the Spell Progession Table.

 

Okay, one more example:

 

A Level 1 Bard cannot cast any spell. His grimoire is empty when you start the game. Okay...At this point, according to me, a Bard SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to transcribe any kind of magic scrolls. Any. Nor should be allowed to even cast spells written in a scroll. When he advances to level 2, a bard can, according to the Spell Progession Table of the Bards, memorize level 1 spells. Okay...AT THIS POINT, bard should get the ability of transcibe all the first level spells according to his/her intelligence (which provides a max number of spells per level) and at the same time, should get the ability of casting the level 1 spells on scrolls.

 

But when should he be able to transcribe also level 2 spells scrolls ? Simple. Just look at the Progression Table and you will see that a Bard can memorize Level 2 spells when he reaches level 4. When this happens, the bard should be able to transcribe level 2 spells scrolls and cast spells written on it.

 

And so on, respecting the Spell Progression Table for Bards.

 

Same identical thing should regard Mages. Mages have their Spell Progression Table. It's just a matter of conforming the use of the scrolls to the Spell Progression Table.

 

I just wish to know it this is possible through a tweak...

[Salk]

CamDawg,

 

what I am just not willing to accept is THAT PRINCIPLE you have just mentioned. I can't believe that scrolls can be made in such a way that those who don't have the necessary capability and the experience could use them.

 

I find it unfair. Inconsistent. Totally out of any logic. No matter how much effort can the scroll writer put, it should still require e receptive mind to understand what there is on the scroll.

 

A scroll is not a sword or a ring of protection or any other item that don't require a specific preparation for its use. It requires the comprehension of what is written on it. It's not a matter of repeating some words.

 

Instead we see a situation where a Low level mage or Bard is given the chance of unleashing the power of a 9th level spell JUST BECAUSE it is on a scroll. I find it absolutely risible...

[CamDawg]

Do you have the same objection to a level 1 paladin using Carsomyr?

[Andyr]

I would agree with Cam's points - though it might be unbalancing to give a character access to such equipment at a particular level, there's little reason why they should not be able to scribe the scrolls/equip Carsomyr. It's more an issue for the DM to decide the appropriate level of items for PCs to find than it is the ruleset to say who can use what.

[trance1881]

Thanks NIGHTMARE, it was just a thought that came to me while reading this thread

 

Salk, I have a question, because as I understand is that you are saying that a mage with 18 intelligence would be unable to cast a 9th level spell from a scroll just because he isnt a high enough level? Oh and salk relax man it sounds like your ready to start WWIII over here.

[CamDawg]

I want to clarify--I'm not saying we won't consider adding the tweak, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate. Andy's spot on in that items available should be determined by a DM.

[NiGHTMARE]

Level 1 Bard cannot cast any spell. His grimoire is empty when you start the game. Okay...At this point, according to me, a Bard SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to transcribe any kind of magic scrolls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unfortunately, when coming up with new ideas for the game, you have to bear in mind the limitations of the engine. And as I said, the only ways to do what you're after would be to either have mages and bards use exactly the same progression as one another, or make the current arcane scrolls mage/sorcerer-only and implement bard-only scrolls as well.

 

Incidentally, have you considered that what you're proposing would mean a 9th level mage with 10 INT would be able to cast from 5th level scrolls, but an 8th level mage with 25 INT wouldn't be able to? I'm afraid I find that pretty ridiculous, especially if it's supposedly on the grounds that the first mage can comprehend something that the second, 2.5 times more intelligent mage can't.

[Salk]

trance1881,

 

I didn't mean to be aggressive towards you at all so sorry if I gave this impression. You understood perfectly well! A mage with INT 18 shoudn't be able, according to me, to either transcribe (copy to Grimoire) nor cast directly from scroll, a spell which is of level 9 untill the mage reaches level 18. So much experience (level 18) is needed for a mage to master spell of such complexity...(see Spell Progression Table for Mages)

 

CamDawg,

 

I do believe the same limitation shouldn't include Carsomyr which, if my memory doesn't fail me, is a sword. An exceptional sword but still a sword. It's not comparable with the other situation. What capability is required for using a Sword ? This is the question you must ask you.

 

We are speaking of magic understanding here not about how to weild a sword or a mace. The usage of a weapon requires a physical training and there are actually limitations of Strenght for most kind of weapons. How good and effective one can be with it depends on Thac0 and how proficient one is. Both are components that improve with levels. So if you like you can think that for weapon something similar to my proposal already exists but reflects the fact that a weapons doesn't require a mental preparation. It's a simple instrument to use, no matter how well made or magical it is.

 

Instead scrolls usage is all another matter. It requires a combination of experience and intelligence for being successful. In fact, there is a Spell Progression Table that follow this principle. Why shouldn't it include the scrolls comprehension ?

 

x NiGHTMARE,

 

Just because magic understanding is a balanced mix of experience and intelligence I say it's not at all ridicolous what you pictured. To cast level 5 spells it's not necessary to be extremely intelligence but to have had practice with magic for a long time. It's a balance that must always exist. Not to mention that you brought up a limit-case. My limit case instead is that with this tweak, a first level Bard can no longer cast Wish. Instead leaving things like they are now, a Bard theoretically can. What do you think is more ridicolous ?

 

About the engine limitations, I have absolutely no idea! This is why I posted here, friends! It's nice to discuss first if this is actually possible to do and I thank you for coming with already two different solutions...

[trance1881]

No problem Salk. On the point of a certain intelligence being required for casting spells from scrolls i agree on, but as for the mage, bard, or cleric having to be of a certain level to cast spells i think that is abit too much.