Scrolls Usage/Potions Tweak

[BigRob]

Instead scrolls usage is all another matter. It requires a combination of experience and intelligence for being successful. In fact, there is a Spell Progression Table that follow this principle. Why shouldn't it include the scrolls comprehension ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

In PnP at least, a scroll that you can cast a spell from is different to a spell written down in a spellbook. Any mage with the comprehension can learn a spell and scribe it in their spellbook, but that doesn't mean you can whip out your spellboook and start sing it to cast spells from, you have to memorise them in order to be able to do it.

 

As Cam said though, a scroll is a little different, it's an item that another mage has poured their power into, shortcutting the need for the spell's full requirements. In many ways it's like a one shot wand, or staff, which a mage of any level can use. Think also of priest scrolls. They don't use spellbooks at all, yet they are able to harness the divine power of a spell and stick it in material form for themselves or another priest to use later.

 

I'm sure you can guess whre my opinion lies.

[Salk]

trance1881,

 

to be coherent with what you say then you should also welcome the fact that a Mage with high intelligence should be allowed to memorize any kind of spells from Level 1 then since it's only Intelligence that matters...

 

BigRobb,

 

I do understand where your opinion lies but I absolutely don't see it that way. A scroll is an item a mage uses also to transcribe a spell and not only to trigger en enchantment.

 

Saying that, you must think of a scroll also as a source and not only as a magical item of one time use. This is the paradox that comes up. A mage will replicate the spells effects once the spell is transcribed. Not to mention that both transcribing a scroll and triggering the spell have the same consequence: the destruction of the scroll.

 

Being a scroll a source, it implies its full comprehension in order to transcribe it. What I am telling you is this: if the only scrolls usage was just to cast a spell one time, I might even accept it as, like you say, "it was a wand with a single charge" (although it'd be still a risible) but since the scroll is foremost e source item then I do believe your point of view falls.

 

The reason why a Spell Progression Table exists and is accepted by everyone in PnP is that everybody believe that mastering magic requires both Intelligence and Experience. A scroll that can be utilized according to what I believe doesn't certainly become less precious or important in the game. It's just become more consistent by reserving its use to people that has reached a sensible level of emphaty.

[SixOfSpades]

The fact that spell scrolls can be destroyed during the transference to the spellbook shows that this is extremely taxing on the Mage's concentration (perhaps even more than memorizing and casting the same spell)--apparently, when you simply read a scroll, that's all you do: Read it aloud and the magical energies coalesce and flow toward the target of your choice. Anyone (who knows the language and ciphers of arcane magic) can do it, and what's more, it's almost impossible to be interrupted while doing so. But the game shows us that scribing the spell is the difficult bit: They have to release the energy exactly as they did from reading the scroll, but keep it contained in their memory / aura for as long as it takes to copy the memorized text of the spell into their personal spellbook. While I admit that this rationalization has some problems (like, why do Mages need to copy the spells at all, why don't they simply use a bunch of scrolls stapled together?), it seems good enough for now.

 

While I agree that a Level 1 Bard reading 9th-level scrolls is indeed horrendously overpowered, I take solace from the fact that it will never happen. The only 9th level spell you can get as a random drop is Freedom, and all the other high-level spells are dropped by enemies that are (usually) difficult enough to prevent their being beaten by anyone but a party that will soon be capable of casting such spells, and those high-level scrolls are so precious (especially to low-level parties, when such scrolls are comparatively rare and therefore dear) that the player would hardly dream of wasting the party's first scroll of Horrid Wilting: That wonderful little scroll is going into the Mage's spellbook before anything bad can happen to it. So I don't mind people being able to cast top-level spells from scrolls.

 

With that said, I see no logical impediment to implementing a penalty for the number of EXP levels between your current level and the level at which you would be able to memorize that spell: Sure, all you're doing is reading the text of the spell right off the scroll, but no matter how fluent you are at deciphering arcane symbols on the fly, you might still stumble over a word that you're not familiar with, floccinauhinihilipipification.

 

With that said, I don't want to see this penalty become so severe that Jan and Aerie wither away because they won't be able to cast the high-level spells that the party will so desperately need in ToB. NPCs like Nalia, Viconia and Cernd already suffer from "second-best" syndrome, the last thing we need is the player planning every single game with, "Okay, do I want to be the party Wizard, or do we take Edwin?"

 

My two suggested solutions:

1) Remove all the Potions of Genius and Mind Focusing from all the Temples (except maybe one or two at Oghma's). With the party dependent on random drops if they want to do a "Raise my INT to 25, scribe all the scrolls at once" bender, rolling a high INT during Character Creation now actually gains some semblance of importance. While I'm on the subject, it wouldn't hurt to decimate all those Potions of Master Thievery, too, so it might actually become worthwhile to put some skill points in Pick Pockets.

 

2) Implement an INT-dependent chance of spellcasting (for Mages and Bards) and scroll-reading (for Mages, Bards and Sorcerers) failure:

       Odds to  Odds to  Odds to
INT   scribe    cast     read
       spell    spell   scroll
9       35      78      87
10      40      80      88
11      45      82      89
12      50      83      90
13      55      85      91
14      60      87      92
15      65      88      93
16      70      90      94
17      75      92      95
18      85      95      97
19      95      98      99
20      96      99      99
21      97      99      99
22      98      100     100
23      99      100     100
24      100     100     100
25      150     100     100

This would, of course, be almost impossible to implement, but it does make sense, and I think is quite balanced: It discourages trying to play a Mage with only 11 INT but at the same time keeps all of the Mage NPCs as viable party members....and at the same time helps to compensate for the way the game's balance of power is tipped in the favor of Wizards.

[Salk]

SixofSpades,

 

your point is an interesting one and what you suggest to implement would be a step ahead towards the right direction but sorry to say I can't really do away with the problem of people "casting high level spells" because it's not just about a first level Bard casting a 9th level spell from a scroll.

 

It's a matter of a precise, definite structure to conform to. The bard casting Wish is just an example. A level 6 mage that, with my new system, could not cast Fireball instead is much more realistic (he/she should wait to reach level 7) and might happen often. It would be a revolution based on the Spell Progression Table requirements.

 

Think of how ridicolous is to open your spellbook and see that your character has succesfully transcribed a level 7 spell, let's say when he is level 2, let's say.

 

There is a nice icon further down in your spellbook. There, ready, understood by the mage....So - who can tell me - why can't I memorize that spell ? It's there...I succesfully transcribed it into my grimoire. I did understand what it implies. I know how to replicate it because it's obvious, dear friends, that if a spell IS in the spellbook, then it means I should know how to cast it.

 

Instead what happens ? Yes, I must wait untill I reach the proper level to be actually able to cast it!! It's absolutely inconsistent...

 

And to patch this inconsistency the only solution is not to implement a chance of failure like you suggest but to forbid a mage without the right requirements (exp/int mix) to understand what the content of a scroll is.

 

However, I would welcome your point 1 solution. The Potion of Genius and Mind Focusing should be drastically reduced and so all the potions that boost any primary attribute (STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CON, CHA). I would not diminsh the presence of Potions of Thievery instead...

[BigRob]

Think of how ridicolous is to open your spellbook and see that your character has succesfully transcribed a level 7 spell, let's say when he is level 2, let's say.

 

There is a nice icon further down in your spellbook. There, ready, understood by the mage....So - who can tell me - why can't I memorize that spell ? It's there...I succesfully transcribed it into my grimoire. I did understand what it implies. I know how to replicate it because it's obvious, dear friends, that if a spell IS in the spellbook, then it means I should know how to cast it.

 

Instead what happens ? Yes, I must wait untill I reach the proper level to be actually able to cast it!! It's absolutely inconsistent...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is more an engine limitation, something Bioware forgot to put in. In PnP, you cannot scribe a spell that you cannot comprehend, even from a scroll.

[SixOfSpades]

There is a nice icon further down in your spellbook. There, ready, understood by the mage....So - who can tell me - why can't I memorize that spell ? It's there...I succesfully transcribed it into my grimoire. I did understand what it implies. I know how to replicate it because it's obvious, dear friends, that if a spell IS in the spellbook, then it means I should know how to cast it.

One possible explanation for that would be that you can indeed memorize and cast it, but doing so when you are at an inadequate level of training would knock your other, lower-level spells out of your head for the day, thus making you less effective as a spellcaster. Besides, it's one thing to hold an entire chapter of a book in your head for 5 minutes, and quite another to hold a few pages overnight.

 

Of course, any attempt to apply logic to the spell system is foredoomed to failure, since the "memorize what spells you want to cast tomorrow" never made any sense to begin with. I for one wish BG used the mana system, like any reasonable game. Still, that's the way D&D was built, and unless we all want to play Sorcerers, we're just going to have to live with it.

 

Items have some interesting Usability flags. There's one for minimum Intelligence, and another for minimum Level. Now, I've never seen the Level one used, so it might not be reliable. Still, let's say it is: Suppose we flag all the spell scrolls to be Usable only by Mages who are at least sufficifiently advanced to memorize and cast spells of that level. Now, this added restriction will prevent low-level Mages from reading high-level spells right off the scroll, but will it prevent them scribing the spell to their books? Maybe, but maybe not. Testing will provide the answer, but there's still one big problem: Bards gain access to spell levels at different levels than Mages do. Mages first get to cast 6th level spells when they hit Level 12, Bards get them at Level 16. You are forced to choose to let the Bard use scrolls "early," or to make the Mage wait. So I'm chary of going that route. Overall, I'm more in favor of having INT, rather than level, be the determining factor: The table that decreed "You must be at least this smart to SCRIBE SPELLS of this level" can be rescued and made into a rule that says "You must be at least this smart to READ SCROLLS of this level."

      Odds to  Odds to  Odds to    Read 
INT   scribe    cast    read     scroll
      spell    spell    scroll    level
9       35       78      87       4th
10      40       80      88       5th
11      45       82      89       5th
12      50       83      90       6th
13      55       85      91       6th
14      60       87      92       7th
15      65       88      93       7th
16      70       90      94       8th
17      75       92      95       8th
18      85       95      97       9th
19      95       98      99       9th
20      96       99      99       9th
21      97       99      99       9th
22      98       100     100      9th
23      99       100     100      9th
24      100      100     100      9th
25      150      100     100      9th

Unlike my idealized plans for making % chance of spell failure dependent upon INT, this Usability thing can actually be done. Of course, it must not prevent low-INT Mages from scribing scrolls, only from reading them, otherwise we're stuck with the Edwin-only syndrome again.

 

The Potion of Genius and Mind Focusing should be drastically reduced and so all the potions that boost any primary attribute (STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CON, CHA). I would not diminsh the presence of Potions of Thievery instead...

Actually, I don't mind the other stat-raising Potions, because those are all attributes that are in pretty constant demand, and any Potion that makes a difference during combat (STR, DEX, CON) is more than likely to be Dispelled anyway. Potions of Insight are useless for anything except Lore (and Wish cheese), they might as well be called Lore Potions. It's the Potions of Genius, Mind Focusing, and Master Thievery that get on my nerves, since you can drink 3 potions and render an entire aspect of your character (Intelligence or Pick Pockets ability) completely obsolete. Who needs Pickpocketing when 3 or 4 Potions of Master Thievery last long enough to steal pretty much everything that can be stolen in the entire city of Athkatla? Do it again in Trademeet and once more in Saradush and you've just eliminated any desire to put a single proficiency point in Pockets. I have similar feelings about the Ring of Human Influence, of course.

[Salk]

Six of Spades,

 

thanks for your further insight. I can see that the problem is that both Bard and Mages should share the same Spell Progression Table in order to implement the mechanism I wished for.

 

Engine limitations then. I no longer can see what I proposed as viable and now I advocate your last proposal which seems reasonable. Do you think it's fully doable ? It would already be a big step towards the right direction, I believe but only if we eliminate the Potion of Genius and similar from the game, otherwise it won't make much sense...

 

NiGHTMARE has said before that we can forbid Bards from transcribing level 7 or greater spells (I don't know if this already happens in a unmodded game) so I would say to implement this at least, since Bards can memorize spells up to level 6, no matter INT or Experience...

[trance1881]

I was wondering is it possible instead of completely eliminating these potions but instead put limitation on how many can be consumed in a certain time period???

[Salk]

I'd be more pleased with a drastic reduction of their numbers. Just like SixOfSpades said, a couple or so in the whole game should be enough...I also believe though that we should also limit the presence of all those other potions that boost other Abilities...

[trance1881]

Well, it was just a thought but honestly ive never used any of those potions. cant; say never i might have used a couple of master thievery to give imoen a boost to steal from the sahagin prince. but thats about it.

[NiGHTMARE]

On my install, I've repaced the existing potions of Master Thievery with potions of Thievery, which give +4% to all thief skills and 8 bonus hitpoints. Potions of Master Thievery have been added in smaller numbers elsewhere, but now give +12% to all thief skills and 20 bonus hitpoints (rather than +40% to open locks and pick pockets). This way it becomes more of an all-round thief tool, and is more in-line with the original pnp version. I'm also planning to do some general potion number and location rebalancing.

[Salk]

NiGHTMARE,

 

this sounds good. But could you also implement a modified magic system according to what SixOfSpades have illustrated above ?

 

It would at least help some to give some consistency to the scrolls usage...

 

We might collect these modifications (limiting the number of potions that alter abilities granting too big benefits and changes to the arcane scrolls usage) in one single tweak in the next version of TuTu and G3 Tweak packs...

[Andyr]

I think that potion tweaks and scroll tweaks would work better as separate components.

[Salk]

Andyr,

 

you're right although they look really good together as a rebalancing combination...

[SixOfSpades]

Test Results: Success! I edited the Wish scroll to require 18 Int, and hacked a few copies into my game. Jan was unable to equip them in his quickslots, but was still able (after a few tries) to correctly scribe the spell into his book. INT is on its way back to serving some real purpose once again. By this method, Bards could still not be prevented from scribing high-level spells, only blocked from reading them aloud....but I see little point in doing so, since they're going to be able to when they take Use Any Item anyway.

 

Poll: Should the "Odds to cast spell" table that I've been posting go above 100% at INT ranges of 23-25, to preemptively counteract things like Wizard Slayers and Insect Plague?

 

 

Potions: I see three ways around the Genius/Mind Focusing/Master Thievery problem:

1) Drastically reduce the number of Potions at reliable locations in the game.

2) Edit the effects of the Potions to make them non-cumulative.

3) Weaken the effects of the potions to make them much less powerful.

 

#1 seems the most in need; Potions of Genius and Mind Focusing flow like water in this game, Potions of Master Thievery are laughably ample when you consider the pickpocketing opportunities (and even Nalia can pick locks pretty well), and all the Potions of X Strength aren't far behind. I would remove all INT potions from all Temples except Oghma (and then leave only, say, 3 of each), and decimate the number sold in most stores--I would leave Roger the Fence, the Duergar, and the Drow as the only stores that carry them in any quantity.

I like #2, because it would nullify the effect of hoarding potions, and therefore encourage players to drink them more often, reducing the effect of getting to the end of the game and going through the huge stash of all your unused potions. Except that there are problems: Making potions non-cumulative means having them render the character immune to their effects for their full duration....so you would be able to drink a single Potion of Genius and become immune to Mind Flayer hits for hours on end, because you're immune to INT modifications.

#3 also shows merit. I like your version, NiGHTMARE, though I don't see why you needed to change the name of the Potion of Perception. I would have made the modifiers +5% and +10% to all skills, myself. I take it the extra hitpoints are insurance against a fumbled Disarm Trap attempt?

 

I also want to repeat my view that it doesn't make sense for certain Potions to be Unusable by certain classes.

*Thief tries to drink an unidentified Potion*

*fails*

"Dang it, it won't even pour out of the bottle for me! Crap. Must be a Potion of Heroism, Invulnerability, or Giant Strength. Phooey."