Khalid's True Class profs

[Lemernis]

I have Tutu Tweaks installed, and I selected the option to make bastard sword two-handed. I see that Tutu's version of True Class Fighter for Khalid takes the liberty of having him dual wield bastard swords. I'm going to change his profs back to his original ones in BG1 via Shadowkeeper, because I prefer putting all his profs in Long Swords. But would this conflict have crashed the game if I were not to do this?

 

Also, out of curiosity, how does dual wielding bastard swords work out for Khalid? I would doubt that a fighter would be more effective dual-wielding bastard swords than with four or five profs in a large sword of some kind (be it longsword, scrimitar, katana, or two-handed sword). But I'm really not that familiar with BG2, so I shouldn't assume that. Which is better?

[Kulyok]

Scimitars and katanas are nearly non-existent (if you do not count the mods), short swords do not deal that much damage, and long swords are out for me since both Shar-Teel and the protagonist are using them.

 

So, I use bastard swords - the advantage is that two of these can be obtainted in the very beginning, in Beregost - one bought and one taken from a chest in a Thunderhammer smithy. It is rather good, actually: with double Strength spell Khalid's strength goes to 18/00 and he starts to deal some serious damage. Dual-wielding, naturally - in BG1 it is the most powerful style.

[Lemernis]

The availability of good large swords in BG1 is fine with me. There's a good number of 'em.

 

In a vanilla BG game Khalid joins with Large Swords + +, Axe +, Bows +. I usually have Khalid wield Varscona and a large shield and get him to at least High mastery (+ + + +) in Large Swords by the end of the game.

 

As for other tanks, where swords are concerned I'll give Minsc or Shar-Teel Arghain's two-handed sword +1 until I get Spider's bane into their hands. And finally The World's Edge, if I'm doing Durlag's. I like giving these two characters two-handed swords because with their high Str they'll dole out the most damage with them.

 

There's a powerful scrimitar +2 on the roof of Durlag's if I need one of those. Unless I'm playing an evil party I won't kill Drizzt for Frostbrand and Defender.

 

If I'm playing a warrior class PC, I generally like to choose a weapon somewhat out of the ordinary, mostly because large swords are so dominant and prevalent throughout the game. For my main character I typically look for a weapon that provides me a change of pace, and/or a bit of a challenge.

 

I'm not well versed in dual-wielding, and BG2 mechanics in general for that matter. I'm not a big fan of BG2, actually. But the subject of dual wielding in BG1 Tutu is something that definitely interests me...

 

I recently looked over a section on dual-wielding in Dan Simpson's excellent BG2 walkthrough:

 

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/recognition/2203.html

 

The section is titled "Dual Wielding Analysis".

 

Dan Simpson's conclusion: "So is dual wielding really worth it? Yes, but really only if you get 3 stars in the Two Weapon style. It also becomes much better as your THACO improves. And never, ever dual wield unless you have at LEAST 2 stars, else your main hand THAC0 is hurt."

 

So dual-wielding would seem to make sense only for a Fighter, or Fighter kit. But if that is the case, why is dual-wielding associated so strongly with rangers, who can't become more than Specialized (+ +) in any weapons prof?

[Domi]

I would respectfully disagree with Simpson, as I find that dual-wielding is the only thing that gives my melee characters an advantage over the range weapons in the number of attacks. I never use shields or two handed weapons neither in BG1 nor in BG2. But then again, my characters are almost always rangers or bards and have double stars in the dw and then all stars I can get in their melee, no range.

[Kulyok]

I cannot say Dan Simpson offers a deep analisys of dual-wielding. I, however, do not want to go deep into details, either, but I shall very roughly put it like this:

 

In BG2, you have 3,5 attacks per round if dual-wielding and 2,5 attacks per round if wielding a two-handed weapon. One attack with an one-handed weapon deals roughly 28 damage, with a two-handed - 33 damage. 98>82.5. So, I employ dual-wielding in BG1 TUTU without thinking, adding two stars right away and one more - later. Again, very rough, based on (thirty? fifty?) warrior runs through SOA and TOB.

 

I think the numbers in Bg1 for me would be something like 24>17 in the middle of the game, but I played only a dozen times or so, cannot say for sure. I only know that Minsc dealt less damage than dual-wielding Shar-Teel, and Khalid - more than Ajantis with a two-handed sword.

[Domi]

I only know that Minsc dealt less damage than dual-wielding Shar-Teel, and Khalid - more than Ajantis with a two-handed sword.

 

I confirm this statement with an energetic nod of my head. And the more stars you give to Shar-Teel, or Khalid, in the swords the scarier they become - their kill ratios become close to those of Kivan and Coran.

[Lemernis]

Again, talking BG1 Tutu here....

 

I would think that the a Fighter with Grand Mastery (+ + + + +) is going to perform better than a dual wielder. Right?

 

But at level 3, will a Fighter with

 

Weapon x + +

Two Weapon Style + + +

 

outperform a Fighter with Mastery (+ + + )?

 

And similarly, at level 6 will a Fighter with

 

Weapon x + + +

Two Weapon Style + + +

 

outperform a Fighter with High Mastery (+ + + +)?

[Domi]

Heh, let me run a test for you at one of the spawn points, and I will give you the number of kills per each specified character in xzvarts, but my gp are on the DW.

[Kulyok]

I would think that the a Fighter with Grand Mastery (+ + + + +) is going to perform better than a dual wielder. Right?

 

Remember, Grand Mastery in TUTU does not give an extra half-attack. It has been nerfed for BG2.

[Lemernis]

Remember, Grand Mastery in TUTU does not give an extra half-attack. It has been nerfed for BG2.

 

I selected the following options from Tutu Tweaks:

 

True Grand Mastery (Courtesy of Weimer's BG2 Ease-of-Use)

This is the standard Baldurdash / TeamBG "un-nerfed" grand mastery patch. It gives you the extra half-attack and the to-hit and damage bonus you had in standard BG and IWD.

 

Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table, Saving Throws, Grand-Mastery, and Arcane, Divine Spell Progression (Courtesy of Weimer's BG2 Ease-of-Use)

From Blucher, this component follows AD&D wizard and cleric spell progression more closely, fixes some saving throw and THAC0 table problems, etc.

[Kulyok]

Yeah, I know of this one, just pointed out it was not originally in the BG2\TUTU. Actually, I was installing G3tweaks for BG2 only yesterday, and was very disappointed that there was no such a component for this mod, while there was one for TUTUtweaks. I had to install Ease-of-Use specifically for this thing.

[Kish]

No fighter can see Grand Mastery under the BG1 xp cap (you start with four proficiency points, of which you can't put more than two in any one thing, and gain only two more before reaching 161,000 xp). I don't know how the conversion currently treats that (if you can put all for initial proficiency points in one area a fighter can reach Grand Mastery by the end of the game, and if the XP cap is gone all bets are off). I can, however, guarantee that Khalid in unconverted BG1 did not put more than two points in Large Swords at level 1, and...

I'm going to change his profs back to his original ones in BG1 via Shadowkeeper

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Back to his original ones" would mean using something called Large Sword proficiency, which takes in all sorts of large swords in BG1 and doesn't exist in BG2.

[Idobek]

We deliberately don't duplicate Ease-of-Use components in G3Tweaks. TutuTweaks is a different matter because we want to make sure people are confident that they can use these components with Tutu.

[Lemernis]

No fighter can see Grand Mastery under the BG1 xp cap (you start with four proficiency points, of which you can't put more than two in any one thing, and gain only two more before reaching 161,000 xp).  I don't know how the conversion currently treats that (if you can put all for initial proficiency points in one area a fighter can reach Grand Mastery by the end of the game, and if the XP cap is gone all bets are off).  I can, however, guarantee that Khalid in unconverted BG1 did not put more than two points in Large Swords at level 1, and...

 

Right, even though I have the XP cap removed I've never reached level 9 with any character in BG1 and I've played it many, many times. I don't visit every map, I don't clear every map that I do visit, and only once in a blue moon do I do any of the Tales quests. I usually end the game around level 6-7.

 

In games where I use Khalid, I pick up Jah and Kha early on, per the storyline. Khalid joins with two profs in Large Swords. If you pick him up later, when the party average is level 4 or higher, Khalid will have three profs in Large Swords. Dudleyville shows the progression: http://www.dudleyville.com/bg1/good.htm

 

I once played a vanilla BG1 game specifically for the purpose of comparing Khalid's and Minsc's performance. It wasn't perfectly weighed, eg, I didn't give them exactly the same equipment. But I think it was close enough to give fair idea.

 

I used a party of four so they'd level faster, and I only played the game up to level 7 for each character.

 

Khalid clearly outperformed Minsc. There wasn't any contest, actually. I never even got them into the big city, where if Khalid had gotten his hands on the Gauntlets of Ogre Power he would have outperformed Minsc even further.

 

Khalid ended with High Mastery in Large Swords. He had the edge on equipment. Khalid was equipped with Varscona, a large shield, and the Bracers of Weapons Expertise (from Meilum). Minsc of course never goes higher than Specialization in Large Swords. He had Arghain's two-handed sword +1, then Spider's Bane, and the Guantlets of Dexterity.

 

Their respective THACOs remained fairly close, always within a couple point, though Khalid's was slightly better throughout. Minsc, with his massive Str and a two-handed sword, delivered more damage with each hit. Khalid had the faster weapon however... and I think, compared with Minsc (who was using a weapon almost twice as slow) Khalid might have consistently beaten his opponents to the punch first within each round. (? Otherwise what is the point of a weapon's speed factor?)

 

Anyway, Khalid managed to get in the killing blow the lion's share of the time. IIRC, he had 44% of the kills to Minsc's 28%.

[Lemernis]

Oh, also--again, I'm using Tutu Tweaks and have selected the option to make bastard swords two-handed. Khalid joins dual wielding bastard swords. I guess I'll have to either change Khalid's profs, or change bastard swords back to one-handed weapons. But maybe I can get the best of both worlds. Anyone ever tried it? (i.e., making bastard swords two-handed and leaving Khalid's True Class profs as they are?)