Classless CRPGs systems?

[Domi]

I was wondering if there was a CRPG game that let go of the classes altogether, but instead built a more extensive ability scrore system, tieing in available skills, feats, HPs, ACs etc into them so a character was just 'adventurer', not a 'fighter/rogue/etc'?

[Kulyok]

Sea Dogs?

 

http://seadogs.bethsoft.com/main.html

 

An oldie but goodie. They also had part two, which sucked tremendously, and now part 3 is out. (Will be available in Russia on 09.12.2005)

[NiGHTMARE]

Elder Scroll: Morrowind (and presumably the upcoming sequel, Oblivion) does almost all of that. However, it still gives you class titles, based on your ability and skill scores.

 

EDIT: oh, and most of the Ultima games are like this, too - especially the two Ultima Underworlds.

[Domi]

Nah, it's not what I am looking for. Basically what I am trying to get at is a BG-like game, with a party, only without the D&D classes. Instead the characters have a more complex ability scores and each of those ability scores gains you authomatically certain skills or feats or spells etc and depending on how many points you put into that ability.

 

Ie you will have:

 

Strength (to lift; progressively makes one to inflict higher damages with melee weapons)

Constitution (defines when you get hitpoints per level if you use the d4, d6 and d8 die)

Stamina (controls how fast your character becomes fatigued)

Hardiness (how easily you are healed/damage reductions)

 

Dexterity

Agility

Coordination

Quickness

 

Mathematical Aptitude

Imagination (Enchantment spells)

Memory (Languages spoken and journal thoroughness)

 

Wisdom

Common Sense

Foresight (Divination)

Willpower (Conjuration spells)

Spirituality (Healing Spells)

 

Charisma (Leadership ability)

Beauty (Romantic significance, reaction ajustments)

Artistism (Performing abilities)

 

etc.

 

In other words, building a personality and ability, rather than having the acess to the pools of stuff granted by the class. I mean currently D&D is so confused with the unlimited multiclassing, that I just don't see the point of a class, appart from a cool name. Like why would a mage with as high constitution as a fighter should still have low hitpoints?

[Kulyok]

Dexterity

Agility

Coordination

Quickness

 

Mathematical Aptitude

Imagination (Enchantment spells)

Memory (Languages spoken and journal thoroughness)

 

Wisdom

Common Sense

Foresight (Divination)

Willpower (Conjuration spells)

Spirituality (Healing Spells)

 

Charisma (Leadership ability)

Beauty (Romantic significance, reaction ajustments)

Artistism (Performing abilities)

 

Sounds way too subjective and controversial to me. I probably wouldn't buy it, if it existed.

[Domi]

And the class system is not subjective?

[Kulyok]

Less so, yes.

[Kulyok]

Point is, when people start developing something as close to reality as possible, instead of developing something convenient to play with, we end up with something like Neverwinter Nights. Simple does not mean bad; actually, I always thought the engine used for Nox was very close to the ideal for younger gamers.

 

Complex system of feats, game "evaluating" your character in any way possible does not make much sense to me. Strength->damage, Con->HP, Dex->AC, Int->number of spells. Simple and effective. I believe "talking" skills are better left unchecked, since most(and I do think most) players would prefer that the choice of an appropriate reply be left to them.

[Domi]

I think nowadays they are completly subjective. For example, I was leafing through the Adventurer's book looking for a prestige class for my druid, and there was one... DR4/RO2/BRD4 combination that was then called a prestige class of a bard with some druidic tendencies. In other words it was a stack of 3 different classes that lost all 'class' sense to me.

 

I think that an adventurer that lives in the woods and is darn good at singing does not have to be thought in terms of the classes. Classes are so artificial and they made sense when in 1 AD they pretty much solely described your set of abilities.

 

But now? I can take whatever feats or skills if I am willing to spend points on them. Then why even bother with classes. Again, how is it fair that a mage of the same constitution as a fighter gets much less hp and a fighter who is just as smart as a wizard can't cast a simple spell?

 

I think that if we are walking the way of flexibility let's walk it to the end and abandon classes in favor of just personality threats/abilities.

[Domi]

Point is, when people start developing something as close to reality as possible, instead of developing something convenient to play with, we end up with something like Neverwinter Nights. Simple does not mean bad; actually, I always thought the engine used for Nox was very close to the ideal for younger gamers.

 

If it was left on the level of 1st Edition then I would agree with you - it was simple and it assumed that it is not realistic. The 3.5 Ed is not just complicated and convoluted, it has too many gradations that make no 'physical'/'intuitive' sense to me.

[Kulyok]

I can only reply with: "I totally agree, 3.5E sucks."

 

I think that in the light of 3.5E, your suggestion makes sense, and, as I have seen in Sea Dogs and other games closer to Baldur's Gate, it works. Still, I think of 1E and 2E classes fondly.

[Domi]

Well, the problem is not only that it is overcomplicated per se, it is dragging the rest of the systems along for the ride. I am hanging on DA forums. BioWARE is developping their own rule system. But what do they propose? Classes.

 

Not just classes, but gradational classes (ie apprentice --> wizard --> archmage), that in turn

... have access to an array of class-specific, role-specific and general purpose abilities that give you quite a bit more choice in what direction you want to specialize.

 

In other words, even more complex than D&D 3.5 but still wants the classes.

[NiGHTMARE]

I know it's not what you want, but there's actually an optional rule for 2nd Edition D&D which splits each of the six regular ability scores stats into two sub-ability scores:

 

Strength -> Stamina + Muscle

Dexterity -> Aim + Balance

Constitution -> Health + Fitness

Intelligence -> Reason + Knowledge

Wisdom -> Intuition + Willpower

Charisma -> Leadership + Appearance

 

To get the scores for the sub-abilities, you roll for the ability score and double the result, and then split that number between the two sub-abilities - though there can only be a maximum of four points difference.

[Andyr]

Vampire the Masquerade's computer games (Redemption and Bloodlines) have a classless system (though the latter has clans, which I suppose has some parallels).

[Domi]

Oh, cool. I'd try that, but I am ambivalent to the vampires...