Watcher of Helm has no access to Law?

[Guest Meddle.]

Well, the topic title is what i mean.

 

The DR readme says:

Helm is ever-vigilant, and embodies the spirit of lawful neutrality.

 

So?

[NiGHTMARE]

Just because a god is Lawful, it doesn't automatically mean he or she grants the sphere of law to his priests (and the same is true of Chaos). Helm and his followers are more about protection, watchfulness and guardianship than lawkeeping.

[yarpen]

But Helm is the most lawful god!! And law spells are so good for Helm Cleric!! It's a so stupid bug.

 

Talos - chaotic

Helm - lawful

 

They're enemies

[Guest -jastey-]

What are "law spells"?

 

-jastey

[NiGHTMARE]

Nope, the most Lawfully minded god is Tyr, god of Justice. I'd also say that Torm, god of Duty, Loyalty, and Obedience, is more concerned with Law than Helm. As I said in another post, all DR's spheres are taken from pnp, so it's not a "bug", just a "design decision" .

 

Talos may be an enemy of Helm and visa versa, but Talos certainly isn't Helm's main enemy (he considers Bane/Xvim, Cyric, Mask and Shar to be more important opponents) and Helm isn't Talos' main enemy either (that would be Chauntea). So, why should a god grant his priests a certain sphere of divine magic just because of who one of his numerous enemies is? Especially when you consider that most if not all Lawful aligned gods have at least one Chaotic god as an enemy .

 

Having all Lawful gods with Chaotic enemies grant the priests access to the sphere of lore would be silly, because the sphere may not be fitting for the god in question and/or his speciality priests. The Watcher of Helm's primary concern is to protect people, guard places, etc. He generally won't go out of his way to enforce the laws of the land, though obviously he'll try not to break them whenever possible.

 

EDIT: "...that most not all Lawful..." -> "...that most IF not all Lawful..."

[Guest Meddle.]

All right then, Torm and Tyr priests should have major access to Law, but Helmites should have minor access to Law, methinks. If its their duty to protect and guard, its most likely thats all about chaotic nature of those who violate anything.

[Guest Meddle.]

... and such threats should be prevented and answered, well, in kind.

[NiGHTMARE]

The description of the sphere (from the Spells & Magic sourcebook): "Law spells concentrate on the principle of obedience and the strength of the group over the strength of the individual. Deities of rulership and community are likely to have influence in this sphere."

 

I don't see that obedience and the strength of the many have all that much to do with protection, guardianship or watchfulness. Helm certainly isn't a god of rulership, nor one of the community (in fact, among the gods he is something of a loner). This sphere doesn't fit in with either the deity's portfolio/interests or the duties of the priest. Also, of Helm's seven enemies past and present, two are Lawful Evil, two are Neutral Evil, two are Chaotic Evil, and one is Chaotic Neutral. That would suggest he doesn't generally pick his enemies based on how Chaotic they are .

 

On another note, I think deviating from pnp in just one or two specific cases would be a bit pointless. If we were to travel the "pnp doesn't matter" route, better to go the entire way. Of course, that would mean re-evaluating every sphere for every deity, would take a considerable amount of time. Personally I don't see it as being worth it, when we already have a perfectly good set of apparently well thought out spheres right at out fingertips.

 

EDIT: There's also a technical reason why adding another sphere to Watchers of Helm wouldn't be such a good idea. They're already relatively close to the maximum number of known spells at 3rd level (19/24), and the sphere of Law would add two more. That would mean we could only add three new 3rd level spells to any of the spheres the Watcher already gets; five would be better .

[Andyr]

For what it's worth, I brought up the exact same argument in the workroom when Cleric Remix was in development years ago. In the end we decided that although you might expect him to have Law, for the reasons that NiGHTMARE pointed out we can see why the pnp people decided not to give him it.

[Guest Meddle.]

>I don't see that obedience and the strength of the many have all that much to do with protection, guardianship or watchfulness.

 

I think it does have.

As an individual, a Helmite watches over his own flock. Hierarchy allows the church to be aware of events that may potentially break the balance it is guarding.

 

"Careful planning will always defeat rushed actions in the end"

Careful planning, IMO, means planning in a large scope. Those who are parts of the plan may know nothing about it, or even must not be aware of it - "He also serves, who stands, waits and watches carefully".

 

Hmm, but DR says "He also serves THOSE who stand, wait and watch". Is it from PnP source?

[NiGHTMARE]

Which would you rather have: five old spells granted to a single speciality priest who previously didn't have them, or two brand new spells which are available to many different speciality priests?

 

EDIT: improved wording + grammar

[Guest Meddle.]

After a few days i still feel i havent got it.

Ah well, i'd prefer priests of helm have some Law.

Honestly, i havent even played with any of DR priests, just leveled watcher to 161.000 exp in tutu to see what it was, then read through kit description with attention and didnt agree with this issue.

If PnP is our guideline in both spirit and letter, here, so be it.

[NiGHTMARE]

Even if we agreed with you 100%, the fact this would prevent two new spells from being added to DR would still remain.

[Guest Meddle.]

For the good of the many Yeah, thats the spirit.

[Kish]

"He also serves who stands, waits, and watches carefully" has a dramatically different meaning from "[Helm] serves those who stand, wait, and watch." I hadn't noticed that change myself. Why was it done?