The Original Viconia Relationship thread...

[JPS]

Perhaps not, but Shar-Teel's reaction could be taken to suggest that there's more to the comment than what the player sees. There could be a whole lot of context there that we don't get to see because of the dialogue format ("Viconia puts her hand on Shar-Teel's shoulder and slowly traces the dents in her armour"... well, perhaps it's not that intimate, but what are you going to do when people walk around in steel all their waking hours?) or the way the game handles things like eating or resting (Viconia could have been giving Shar-Teel eyes over the camp fire for days before that comment for all that we know).

 

But you're absolutely right – it doesn't prove anything, and there's nothing in the game that will. Making Viconia bisexual would be a reinterpretation of her character, and the only thing that talks for this reinterpretation is that there are people who are willing to make it. As I said already, if someone makes a mod where Viconia is bisexual, she will be bisexual in that mod, and any "evidence" or lack thereof in the original game will have nothing to do with it. Think of it as an "alternative universe" mod of that makes it easier: this is what would happen if Viconia had fallen for a female main character. It seems to be fairly respected genre of fan fiction, anyway ("alternative universes", that is, not female/female relationships. Although that one's fairly popular too...).

 

(a couple of hours ago I was doubting the idea and now I'm defending it already. Well, no one ever said trying to see both sides of an argument was going to be easy)

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

Wow, this has blown up quite a bit!

 

I do have a few things to say...

 

1) I never liked Bioware's characterization of Viconia. I never liked Bioware's characterization of the Forgotten Realms. David Gaider and I have butted heads over the latter once or twice (specifically about the fall and redemption of Aribeth in Neverwinter Nights) - and in the end I've agreed to disagree with him (and he probably just thinks I'm some kook).

 

2) My idea that Viconia might be bisexual actually dates back to BG1 days - before the Imoen Romance mod was a glimmer in Lord Mirrabbo's eye, most likely. She was one of the two characters I just got that "needle on my gaydar is quivering" feeling about... (The other was actually Imoen.) This may just be wishful thinking on my part, though. (Which is basically to say that we all place our own nuances on the NPCs of the BG universe...)

 

3) The relationships between NPCs are not really well drawn in the game, and they interject so seldomly. You don't really get a feel for what they're like outside of the relationship they all have to the PC.

 

4) The creator of the Forgotten Realms, Ed Greenwood (whom I mentioned in my initial post), has basically said that the Realms are a lot more tollerant than our own world... And yet there is barely a peep about people's attitides to sex and sexuality mentioned in any product - that is because the editors and publishers all have to deal with our own sexually repressive social mores. This includes the writers of the BG series, who have to comply with what Wizards (and ultimately Hasbro) say. Wizards/Hasbro has a "family friendly" policy, which makes it a no-no to mention non-standard sexualities (though mention of heterosexual vanilia sex is allowable). This and this alone is the reason Viconia is depicted as so aggresively straight. Notice that none of the romances show any inclinations away from standard heterosexuality... and in fact, they often sicken me with their stereotyping.

 

5) In writing this "romance" I would really love to give her more depth, and also the option to develop a friendship with her (male or female) - with the possibility of effecting her alignment change without a romance. The idea that love can bring redemption is a great one, but the love of lovers is not the only kind of love in the world, and is not the only kind of love than can be redeeming.

 

6) In essence what I will be doing is applying my vision to Viconia. This does not affect your vision, nor anyone else's. If my vision entertains, then that's a good thing. That is what writing is all about, after all.

 

7) I'm determined to see this through. But I've already run into a snag. I can't seem to find the right tools to extract Viconia's existing dialog so I can take a good hard look at it... Looking at it while playing the game won't help me much - I need to have it readily available for when I'm writing. Does anyone have any suggestions where I might find her "script" or what tools are best for looking at it?

[BevH]

The best I can do is point you to TeamBG. I've yet to find a satisfactory dialogue editing tool, though. The one I use is BG2 Talk Editor, but you have to know the string # in order to get to anything specifically. That usually means looking at dialogue after dialogue and they aren't in order. So you could get an NPC's question, but it could be several dialogues later before you'd see the response. If anyone else has a better suggestion, I would also be very interested.

[CamDawg]

It's all about Near Infinity. Some folks also prefer Infinity Explorer (sorry, no link handy) for browsing dialogue. I'm also willing to bet that DLTCEP also has a dialogue browsing feature, though I don't know for sure.

[BevH]

Yep, you can use those as well. Thing is, you still need to know the string # of the particular dialogue. *sigh* Just call me lazy, but I wish there was a way to be able to look at the romance dialogues without having to look at all the other stuff.

[Harbinger]

Yes, DLTCEP does indeed have a dialog browsing and editing feature, its what I use.

[Sav]

Heh, well, if you're going to do it Zandilar then do it. Personally I think she's straight, but if you sense some gayness in her then that's your view. The least I can offer is some advice. I think it'd be best to make it kind of like the Imoen Romance, with a "friend counter" sort of thing, but don't make it so that if you're always nice to her that she sleeps with you, Viconia is unpredictable. I always thought if she had any gay in her then it would show properly, like Juhani in KOTOR, who admits feelings for a female PC.

I don't really trust the word of Ed Greenwood, because, though he is the realms creator, he has some very strange ideas. I'm not saying a 2000 year old fogey COULDN'T get sex with every fit girl he met, I just find it highly unlikely

 

Well, good luck anyway. If you ever need any help with proof-reading or something, I'm the Grammar Fuhrer apparantly.

 

Heh, JPS, about that Shar-Teel thing, it really does depend on how Viconia speaks it, it sounds like an opening line to a conversation. If she says it in a spiteful manner or with hatred in her voice then I assume she's taking no interest in her, but if she's like "Mmmm I hate you the least... mmm" then she may. 'Viconia leers in Shar-Teels direction, and snorts "Out of all the members of this party, I hate you the least"' or 'Viconia walks up to Shar-Teel and pats her on the back, keeping an untrusting distance, still "You know, out of all the members of this party, I hate you the least" - Well the first one was still Viconia being mean, and the second one was being chummy. If you pick up any gayness from there, well.... errr.... I dunno Like I said, what's the emotion in her voice?

[Cybersquirt]

http://www.dragonlancetc.com/forums/index.php?board=9 <DLTCP

 

I play with NI but I hear DLTCP does the same stuff. For quick view I use Infinity Explorer (http://infexp.sourceforge.net/).. can't follow dialogues with it (click option-see response) but you can see all the strings at once without having to click through all of 'em.

[Cybersquirt]

She disgusts weak people, and, if you played the Viconia romance, you note she believes the roles of women and men are reversed on the surface. I concluded she believes women are weak.

(god-ess help me)

I concluded she thinks women are treated like shit because they don't have/possess the stature or strength of Drow women.

[Meira]

One thing I find strange about Lord Mirabo's Viconia: I believe she says to PC that if she had knew that the PC was interested in women she would have made a move on her (or something along those lines.). I think that unfitting for Vic's character as I would imagine that she would not be shy to make that move regardless if she knew PCs preferences for sure or not.

 

So while a romance for female PC with Vic is an interesting idea I find the way lord Mirabo presents her as bi is a bit off character. But obviously that is not going to be the problem here since the romance will actually happen.

 

-Meira

[NiGHTMARE]

She disgusts weak people, and, if you played the Viconia romance, you note she believes the roles of women and men are reversed on the surface. I concluded she believes women are weak.

Maybe that's purely because she's romancing a strong surfacer male... which she obviously wouldn't be if she were romancing a surfacer female

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

Heh, well, if you're going to do it Zandilar then do it. Personally I think she's straight, but if you sense some gayness in her then that's your view. The least I can offer is some advice. I think it'd be best to make it kind of like the Imoen Romance, with a "friend counter" sort of thing, but don't make it so that if you're always nice to her that she sleeps with you, Viconia is unpredictable. I always thought if she had any gay in her then it would show properly, like Juhani in KOTOR, who admits feelings for a female PC.

I don't really trust the word of Ed Greenwood, because, though he is the realms creator, he has some very strange ideas. I'm not saying a 2000 year old fogey COULDN'T get sex with every fit girl he met, I just find it highly unlikely

 

 

Judging by the reactions in this thread, I can see I'm not the only one to have some sense of her perhaps being bisexual. Hard to tell, though, since she really doesn't (that I've seen) interact much with a female PC at all in BG2 - which I find is a damned shame.

 

I was certianly thinking of a "friendship" counter-like device for the romance. It makes sense that you have to get to know a person first before you jump into the bedroll with them. It would be more than just being nice to her too - doing things like proving your strength of character would definitely count as a tick, but crass acts, stupid acts, violent for the sake of violent acts would count against you. Viconia would appreciate subtelty... I just can't see her with a brute... I'm also thinking that her romance with a female might be more difficult to initiate.

 

Juhani is a wonderful example of a gay character in a game that isn't overdone. I would definitely like to emulate her romance with whatever I end up writing for Viconia - I don't want to make it into a song and dance affair "look at me, I'm bi, I'm Bi, I'm BI!"

 

As for Ed Greenwood, well you're falling into the same trap most people tend to. Judge him not by Elminster! (Aside from the fact that Elminster does not jump into bed with any fit young thing... ) Personally I like the idea that Abeir-Toril's social mores are quite different to our own. They haven't had certian "Real Life" religions dictating their standards of morality. After all, the Realms has such deities as Sharess, the partoness of uh "Festhalls". Sune's faith is known for it's hedonism too (even though she's more about love and passion than actual sex), and she's an extremely popular Greater deity... As far as I know, no deity (even the Lawful Good ones) has anything to say about sex and sexuality unless they actually govern those aspects (such as Sharess, who believes that all pleasure is good)... The more lawful deities might want to see fidelity as part of marriage... But beyond that, I don't think they dictate who their followers can love. Without the absolute drive that certian "Real Life" religions have, I can't see that Abeir-Toril would have developed the same sogibberlings3.netcial mores of Earth.

 

Well, good luck anyway. If you ever need any help with proof-reading or something, I'm the Grammar Fuhrer apparantly.

 

I always appreciate people picking me up on stuff I invariably miss.

[Grim Squeaker]

I think it definately needs a friendship base and then with lots of different ways to start a romance (once, there has been some hinting that they are bisexual). DEFINATELY not linear. The friendship will not turn into a romance unless Charnama actually actively tries to turn it into a romance.

[Zandilar]

I think it definately needs a friendship base and then with lots of different ways to start a romance (once, there has been some hinting that they are bisexual).  DEFINATELY not linear.  The friendship will not turn into a romance unless Charnama actually actively tries to turn it into a romance.

 

Took me a while to answer this one, since I've been thinking about it quite a bit.

 

I read through her romance with a male PC and I was... hmm annoyed. It's interesting to look at the three romances and realise that they're three of the most common stereotypes of women... The Maiden (Aerie), the Mother (Jaheira), and the Whore (Viconia)...

 

I'd prefer to see more complexity... But I'm not really here to rewrite her male romance as well - unless we want to include that as part of the project.

 

Non linear is a good idea, but the structure of the romance might get in the way. Most of them work by having a timer, and certian talks happen at certian times, as everyone probably well knows . I'd like to do something like that with some of the talks, but also include the option of force talking Viconia with some options not opening up until certian points on the timer and some only available when a certian number of Friendship points are achieved... It should be a two way street, the PC should have to do some of the work, after all ... (Is that what you're thinking by non-linear? It would still be kind of linear that way...)

[Kish]

I seem to recall that the vast majority of Dark Elves are bisexual, and there is absolutely no prejudice against homosexual relationship in Drow society.

Certainly news to me if it's true...where is this from?