NPC Kitpack

[NiGHTMARE]

It's in Demi-Human Deities, which has the speciality priests for the Drow, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome and Halfling pantheons.

[jester]

All these changes sound great. I like your thorough research approach guys. To Nalia I think you may be right in your reasoning and I just dislike her for no reason. If it is optional anyway, horray, I say.

[JPS]

A couple of thoughts:

 

The description of the swashbuckler (both the short one in the game and the longer one from the thieves' handbook) fits Imoen (and to some extent Nalia), but what the kit actually does is another question.

 

The inability to backstab makes sense (I always got the impression that Imoen learned most of her thieving skills from Winthrop, and I have a hard time imagining him saying "and when you attack unsuspecting victims from behind, go for the kidneys, girl, that's where it hurts most" ), but the main thing about the kit is the weapon specialization.

 

I don't know what you think, but to me the ability to specialize in weapons means not just that a swashbuckler has been in a position where they had to fight a lot (which Imoen possibly, but not necessarily did during BG I. I don't know about Nalia, but we could probably argue that she fought with her aunt, or something), but that the swashbuckler-to-be was interested in fighting and made an effort to learn more than a normal thief would. I don't think that's true of Imoen at all.

 

As for the mage kit, I don't think wild mage is the best choice, and that's not just because I don't have ToB . This is of course just my opinion again, but the two reasons I can see for becoming a wild mage are that you care about magic for its own sake, wanting to experience it in a more direct way than by learning spells, or that you're just plain mad. None of them seems to apply.

 

I would make her an illusionist, since that seems to fit her personality best. Illusionism and enchantment seem to be the non-violent schools of magic (oh, and divination, but that's just boring), and I'd say that illusionism is definitely the more "playful" and "innocent" (or whatever word you'd associate with Imoen) of the two. Enchantment is all about controlling people and making them do things they don't want, so it could be argued that it's one of the more sinister schools of magic, down there with necromancy, somewhere.

 

I would say that this is just my opinion, but I've said that twice already in this post, so I think you've already got it

[jester]

I do not have her stats in my head, but Nalia being a thief is perhaps meant as a bonus and a bit of backdrop. Unlike Imoen I always thought she was a lousy thief anyway. Jan and Xan are illusionist/enchanter respectively because they have to and divination really sucks in the game. That is why Edwin is arguably even a bit overpowered as he stands since his drawback doesn't count apart from 'True sight'. What am I getting at anyway you might ask. I miss Dynaheir. limited as invokers might be for a dualled human it might be an interesting choice. I can see Imoen starting out with minor cantrips like a dancing flame in her hand and finally getting the hold of it and expand into a full fledged invoker. Although I like JPS' arguments and illusionist would be equally fitting, people could end up having two illusionists in the party or to choose between them for that very reason.

[JPS]

@Nalia's stats: she has 18 in dexterity, just like Imoen, so she could have become a great thief if the family hadn't changed her mind. But this is probably just another case of the general stat inflation in the game. I think it would make a lot more sense for her dex to be 15 or 16, but for some reason I don't think a mod that lowers stats would be very popular...

 

@Jan is also an illusionist: true, but I don't think that's the best way to decide which school Imoen should be specialized in. To me, feeling that something makes sense in the game world is a lot more important than "game balance", whatever that is (I can balance the BG II cd case on a finger, but that's probably not what people usually mean).

 

I seem to recall that the BG I NPC mod people were discussing having Imoen learn magic from one of the mage NPCs during the game, and in that case it would probably make sense to give her the same school as whoever taught her (as long as her stats allow it, of course, which would mean that only evoker and enchanter would really be options). But that's probably a little bit outside the scope of this mod, so I don't know why I'm bringing it up.

 

@starting out with minor cantrips: using the Level 1 NPCs mod that somebody already mentioned, I once made Imoen a normal thief in Irenicus dungeon, and a sorceress when I picked her up in Spellhold. That way, the magic missiles that she force casts in the cutscene after the dungeon became the first sign that whatever Irenicus did actually woke up something in her, and the entirely new class just a few weeks later showed just how much she had changed. It was fun, but without a thief I had real problems getting out of Spelhold...

[jester]

@Nalia's stats: she has 18 in dexterity, just like Imoen, so she could have become a great thief if the family hadn't changed her mind. But this is probably just another case of the general stat inflation in the game. I think it would make a lot more sense for her dex to be 15 or 16, but for some reason I don't think a mod that lowers stats would be very popular...

I actually meant her thieves abilities whatever the technical term is, since they are fixed, if you are not using SK. Do they make any sense? Opening locks and sneaking should be the best ones, because that is what she had to train storywise. 18 dex is really high, but that is perhaps why thieving came naturally to her despite her upbringing.

 

@Jan is also an illusionist: true, but I don't think that's the best way to decide which school Imoen should be specialized in. To me, feeling that something makes sense in the game world is a lot more important than "game balance", whatever that is (I can balance the BG II cd case on a finger, but that's probably not what people usually mean).

No, you can't, I can see it from here. I think there has to be a story behind that choice.

 

 

@starting out with minor cantrips: using the Level 1 NPCs mod that somebody already mentioned, I once made Imoen a normal thief in Irenicus dungeon, and a sorceress when I picked her up in Spellhold. That way, the magic missiles that she force casts in the cutscene after the dungeon became the first sign that whatever Irenicus did actually woke up something in her, and the entirely new class just a few weeks later showed just how much she had changed. It was fun, but without a thief I had real problems getting out of Spelhold...

I just made that up as a story how Imoen got into magic (off camera during BG1). It was obviously such a 'natural' fit that it is forced upon you in BG2 altogether. @ lowering stats: I think again if there is a sound argument backed up by a story that is good, just a revamp like Jaheira is ridiculous and serves only to tell us that the stats did not have a reasoning behind them in the first place.

[JPS]

I actually meant her thieves abilities whatever the technical term is, since they are fixed, if you are not using SK. Do they make any sense? Opening locks and sneaking should be the best ones, because that is what she had to train storywise.

Oh. I think she's reasonably good at opening locks and finding/disarming traps and no good at the rest (like Imoen, only a little bit worse...). But that's probably more because those are the thief skills you really can't do without than for story reasons.

[NiGHTMARE]

If someone were to add some of the other kits from the Complete Thief's Handbook to BG2, how does Adventurer for Imoen sound? Personally I think it suits her perfectly . Investigator for Nalia is a possibility too.

 

Adventurer

 

Description: The Adventurer is the jack-of-all-trades, the prototypical dungeon-delving thief. The Adventurer is not so much a thief as a character who takes advantage of the general thiefly skills on professional adventures into dungeon and wilderness. The Adventurer thief kit has no requirements beyond those of the thief class itself.

 

Role: Adventurer-kit thieves usually serve in parties of brave adventurers of various classes. Their special skills are vital in supporting any successful expedition into wilderness or dungeon. The professional Adventurer is, furthermore, preferred by many adventuring parties, because he is much less likely than other thieves to betray or steal from his own companions. The successful Adventurer knows the value of trust and cooperation, while many a "street thief" has been raised on duplicity and (sometimes literal) backstabbing.

 

Many Adventurers are neutral or lawful. Few are evil, and almost none that are chaotic evil can survive for long, let alone prosper in his ways.

 

Adventurers may be part of a thieves' guild for easy access to equipment and training. They tend to be independent, however, and dislike guilds that have demands beyond a simple membership fee.

 

Secondary Skills: Any.

 

Weapon Proficiencies: Any.

 

Nonweapon Proficiencies: Required: None. Recommended: Player's choice; among those that may be selected are Alertness, Boating, Fast-talking, Gather Intelligence, and Looting.

 

Skill Progression: Adventurer thieves tend to spread their skill improvements as evenly as possible, to allow them to deal with the many different challenges the adventuring life presents. If there is any concentration, it is usually on opening locks or finding and removing traps, since these skills are probably used most often.

 

Equipment: Adventurers are typically very gadget-oriented, delighting in new ways to bypass monsters and raid their lairs. They also may have a good bit of money, from successful ventures, to reinvest in equipment.

 

Special Benefits: None.

 

Special Hindrances: None.

 

Races: Any.

 

 

Investigator

 

Description: Though Investigators are listed as thieves, they are usually in fact the antithesis of criminals. Investigators are enforcers of law and order, the people who know the skills of the thief intimately so that they can combat him.

 

Role: Investigators can play a number of roles. They may be private, their services for sale. Or they may be employed by a government or organization. In each case their skills and activities are similar, but their roles and attitudes may be divergent.

 

An Investigator may be a vigilante, obsessed with uncovering crime wherever it may be hiding, and stopping it. Or he may be the "private eye," a mercenary sort, or retained by an individual or organization, and may be willing to sidestep laws to better serve his client.

 

Some Investigators are of course in the employ of some government. This does not necessarily identify them as good, however. An Investigator may be portrayed as a sort of "good guy cop," if it suits the campaign. But if the players are running thieves (especially folkhero types), the Investigator could be sinister and evil, a perfect foil to the PC thieves' capers.

 

The relationship between Investigator thieves and guilds is not usually that of allies. An Investigator might be employed by a guild, however; though usually a Spy, or perhaps a Troubleshooter, would do the guild's "investigating."

 

In fact, an Investigator might not even realize that he is employed by a guild, if his ostensible employer is a "front" business. Interesting cloak-and-dagger-style adventures could be built around an Investigator discovering, in the course of his work, that the shadow he is following actually lurks behind his own employer.

 

And of course, Investigators ostensibly employed by the government, like other magistrates and officials, sometimes "go bad," and are bought off by a guild, either for information, or in exchange for a blind eye turned toward guild activities.

 

Secondary Skills: Any are possible, though it is not unusual for an Investigator to have spent his entire adult life in this profession. Among the most useful secondary skills for this kit are armorer, gambler, jeweler, limner/painter, scribe, trader/barterer, and weaponsmith.

 

Weapon Proficiencies: Investigators are permitted the normal range of weapons open to thieves. They will normally carry two weapons, at least one of them concealed (knife, dagger, or something similarly small, perhaps in a wrist sheath).

 

Nonweapon Proficiencies: Required: Information Gathering, Observation. Recommended: Alertness, Appraising, Disguise, Fast-Talking, Heraldry, Intimidation, Local History, Modern Languages, Reading Lips, Religion, Trailing.

 

Skill Progression: A balance of generalized skills serves Investigators well. Picking pockets is less important, of course, although you must remember that it may be useful for sleight-of-hand, which may serve an Investigator. Read language skills are a must for deciphering clues; some criminals write important information in obscure languages or secret codes, and being able to decipher it may mean success or failure for the Investigator. Other skills (lockpicking, trap detection and disarmament, and so on) are useful for penetrating and examining the hideouts and houses of suspects.

 

Equipment: A lot of the technological devices available to the modern Investigator (such as fingerprinting techniques, searches of computer databases for information, and so forth) would of course not be available in the medieval fantasy setting. Still, it may be possible to duplicate some of the effects of such devices with magical items; or the DM can make liberal use of anachronism. Suppose Investigators are able to dust for fingerprints, for example. A magical device that identifies fingerprints might also exist, allowing the Investigator to learn whose prints he has dusted.

 

Special Benefits: None.

 

Special Hindrances: None.

 

Races: Investigators may be of any race, though they probably should be of the dominant race in their area of operation. A dwarf would probably be best at doing investigative work in the dwarf-dominated quarter of a large city, for instance. This means that most Investigators would be human (a reasonable enough assumption, since human governments would be the ones to use them most frequently). Operations that investigate guilds with many nonhuman members could of course make much use of nonhuman Investigators.

[Idobek]

I was just looking at the thieves handbook myself. These two were the ones I picked out as well. If someone were to add them I think they fit the characters better than swashbuckler. Handily a disadvantage for both kits could no backstab which is one of (if not the) main reason for giving Imoen and Nalia a swashbuckler kit. Anybody have any suggestions for the avantages of these kits?

[NiGHTMARE]

I just realize that being an "enforcer of law and order" is rather unusual for a chaotic good character like Nalia .

[jester]

Since it has to be retroactive, it can be a problem, but I would give them a mild abilities boost to their thieving skills. The reasoning would be the following (assuming a normal pickable kit). Single class thieves have so many points to distribute that most of them are pointless, but not, if they are humans meant to dual-class. I usually have to wait around for my thief to reach a certain 'usability' threshold for the game until I can dual him to somehing else. The usefulness of an uber-ability looking at boss fights is a bit overused anyway. So why not give them a start-mid game boost that fades as you get all the gadgets to boost stuff? Taking away backstab is reasonable. Not that they would not do it characterwise IMO, but most thieves who backstab end up rather naked and exposed next to a dragon ('sorry, I did not know that you could not be BSed')... a powerful enemy which makes casting spells tedious to say the least.

 

EDIT: I think the second works well in PnP and does nothing in BG.

[Caedwyr]

I'll just jump in again to let people know that the Refinements mod currently has a component that turns Imoen into a Swashbuckler/Mage dual class character.

[Idobek]

Yep, I know. But just because one mod does something doesn't mean another mod can't.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

@ Nalia: A swashbuckler should be something that comes out of a streetfighting neighbourhood. S/he needs cunning and fighting skills to suvrive. I think it is a stretch for Imoen too, but arguable for some degree since she is a thief, when she joins you and hones her skills during BG1. Nalia on the other hand is like a good hearted Paris Hilton who knows some tricks in thievery and magics, but not a sword-swirling conman (or woman if that exists).

 

Fencing i.e. swashbuckling style swordplay has been the toy of the nobility for ages.

 

Sure there are some pirate swashbucklers & some street dualing swasbucklers, but by and large the main swords of the swashbucklers have been expensive & thus tools of the nobility.

[jester]

@ Nalia: A swashbuckler should be something that comes out of a streetfighting neighbourhood. S/he needs cunning and fighting skills to suvrive. I think it is a stretch for Imoen too, but arguable for some degree since she is a thief, when she joins you and hones her skills during BG1. Nalia on the other hand is like a good hearted Paris Hilton who knows some tricks in thievery and magics, but not a sword-swirling conman (or woman if that exists).

 

Fencing i.e. swashbuckling style swordplay has been the toy of the nobility for ages.

 

Sure there are some pirate swashbucklers & some street dualing swasbucklers, but by and large the main swords of the swashbucklers have been expensive & thus tools of the nobility.

I think the art of the word runs deep in her family, but not the one of the sword. Not everyone around is Eowyn. If she was, she could stand against the Roenalls IMO.

 

There is one region in Faerun, which I can't recall now, where most thieves are actually nobles or something alike, but for Nalia it is OOC.

 

 

@ Swashy Imoen: This is the only prob I have with Refinements so far, but I think it is optional as well.