idea for paladin mod

[Lemernis]

Forgive me if such a mod already exists, but here is an idea for a mod that may be of interest:

 

First, ideally, this would be a mod that integrates all three parts of the entire BG trilogy...

 

It would be interesting to see a mod that is properly scripted for a paladin.

 

Such a mod would emphasize the dynamic of LG (prosocial individual raised by Gorion) vs. CE (Bhaalspawn) impulses brewing within the character, the war for his soul as it were.

 

Any violations against a paladin's ethos such as adding evil party members to the party would add up and have consequences. Eventually the character who deviates far enough from his sworn path would be presented with a choice to become a Blackguard or a fallen paladin.

 

Additional material could be added for NPCs throughout the game that tests the paladin's faith with various quests and moral dilemmas. Some ultimately noble end goals may require adding evil NPCs to the party to accomplish--and then suffering a violation to ethos. Similarly, in BG2 siding with the Shadow Thieves in BG2 results in a hefty ethos violation.

 

Upon leaving Candlekeep, the PC could begin receiving visits from messengers from his chosen order, requesting he visit his order's headquarters. There he would receive quests, and messengers would continue to find him throughout the game.

 

A Fallen paladin could complete a quest to restore his paladin status from his own order, in addition to the quest the game offers.

 

Blackguards also would have additional quests to perform to make sure that they maintain their status and rise within the hierarchy.

 

Maybe this is too much to script, but it would also be fun to offer sub-kit choices for paladins from a number of different faiths and knightly orders (taken either from FR canon or created as original material). Tethyrian Knights of Ilmater, etc.

[cmorgan]

Y'now, you hit my playstyle right on the head -- I just never thought of actually adding in content to channel what my imagination was adding. I'd play it... if it does exist in some forms, I have not seen a full implementation of your idea. The closest analog seems to be having Saerileth join in SOA and romance her -- which is not quite what you are describing here

[Grunker]

Sounds interesting.

[ronin69hof]

I'd play it too.

 

ronin

[Lemernis]

If someone decides they'd like to try to make it, I'd be happy to brainstorm more ideas to flesh it out. Quest ideas, write some dialogue, that sort of thing. I have zero scripting ability with the infinity engine. But I think as far as the story goes, refining the basic story, and so forth, I could provide useful material (for the modders to use or not).

[NiGHTMARE]

BTW you mentioned canon knightly orders, so below is a list of all the deities who paladins may worship (i.e. the deities are either LG, NG, or LN, Sune being the "exception that proves the rule"), and all the canon orders I know of. In 3rd Edition, there are also numerous demi-human orders of paladins, but of course in 2E and the BG games, only humans may be paladins.

 

 

The Triad (Ilmater, Torm and Tyr) - Janessar, Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin

 

 

Chauntea - Field Guardians

 

Kelemvor - Knights of the Eternal Order

 

Lathander - Order of the Aster

 

Mystra - Knights of the Mystic Fire

 

Sune - Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose

 

Tyr - Hammers of Grimjaws, Knights of Holy Judgement, Knights of the Merciful Sword

 

 

Helm - Champions Vigilant, Vigilant Eyes of the God

 

Ilmater - Companions of the Noble Heart, Holy Warriors of Suffering, Order of the Golden Cup, Order of the Lambent Rose

 

Mielliki - none (has several orders of rangers, including the Shadoweirs and the Shields of Hope)

 

 

Azuth - Swords of the High One

 

Deneir - none (has numerous monastic orders)

 

Eldath - none (has a monastic order, the Disciples of the Yielding way, and the church has close ties with the Shadoweirs)

 

Milil - Harmonious Order

 

Torm - Loyal Order of Innocents, Order of the Golden Lion

 

 

Gwaeron Windstrom - none (has an order of rangers, the Fellowship of Stalkers of the Silent Path)

 

Hoar - none (has an order of vigilantes and bounty hunters, the Hunters of Vengeance, and an order of bards, the Fellowship of Poetic Justices)

 

Jergal - none (used to have two elite priestly orders, prior to the rise of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul)

 

Nobanion - Legion of Lions

 

Red Knight - Order of the Red Falcon

 

Savras - none

 

Shialla - none (though the church has close ties with the Shields of Hope)

 

Siamorphe - Order of the Silver Chalice

 

Ulutiu - none

 

 

Details on all of the above, with the exceptions of the Holy Warriors of Suffering and the Order of the Lambent Rose (the authors probably forgot about them ), can be found in the Champions of Valor sourcebook. Most are mentioned in Faiths & Avatars or Powers & Pantheons as well.

[Andyr]

I'd suggest Bhaalspawn tendencies would on the whole be LE, given that was Bhaal's alignment. In which case it would still be a worthwhile exercise for a character to resolve the differing approaches to Lawful behaviour the two facets of their personality present.

[Lemernis]

I've never checked Bhaal's alignment, interesting. One of the central tensions of SoA is that the protagonist is at risk to be overtaken by chaos. That's where I was coming from. I guess I need to read up on Bhaal a bit.

[Grunker]

I've never checked Bhaal's alignment, interesting.  One of the central tensions of SoA is that the protagonist is at risk to be overtaken by chaos.  That's where I was coming from.  I guess I need to read up on Bhaal a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, just because old papa is a lawful being, it doesn't mean that juniors life won't descend into chaos when he struggles with two personalities, so I'm a little two-faced on this issue. Changing into the slayer and destroying at random certainly isn't a lawful act, no matter how bureaucratic the old man was.

[Lemernis]

I think it's a more compelling story if the struggle is between the two alignment poles, G-E and L-C. Then it is a matter of devising quests that challenge the paladin to do increasingly less Lawful things.

 

The quests would challenge the paladin's rigid ethos, facing him with moral dilemmas that force him to act outside of his code of conduct in order to ultimately achieve the most virtuous outcome. And as I say, after too many violations he then is faced with the choice to be Fallen. And maybe becoming Fallen is presented to him as an ultimate form of sacrifice to protect something he cherishes (a romance?). Perhaps there could be an architect to all that, a new villain, a highlevel Deathstalker cleric working secretly atop the paladin's order. Just brainstorming, there's lots of possibilities obviously.

 

Do you think folks would mind that the Blackguard class appears post 2nd edition? This is a game, the point of which is fun and enjoyment, and I'm guessing most wouldn't be bothered by blending in something from a later version.

[cmorgan]

I'm not particularly bothered by the mixing of rulesets - even Gary Gygax himself set up the original pamphlet of rules that started all this RPG stuff so him and his friends could have a good time. Then again, I loved campaigns and gaming groups where rules checks were secondary to the unfolding of a kind of inteactive/reactive novel. Group(or solo!) involvement with a story that is immersive beats good adherance to rulesets any day (*cough*TOB*cough*).

 

In the best of all possible gaming situations (read that as the creative force of 12 modders, each with unlimited resources and dedicated as a full time job, working with 4 fantasy-award-winning rabid BG fan authors, locked ino the dream development colony until they came out with the finished product) the pull would actually be 4 ways, with a neutral center. If the multiverse has each of the aspects of the Wheel in balance, then there is an equivalent to the "Paladin" state for each of the major alignments, and each group (or in some cases "loose affiliation" ) would be interested in <CHARNAME> being pulled in their direction, or stopped as <CHARNAME> becomes more and more the Champion of his Order.

 

Law (Dad, Foster Dad, controlling the Slayer impulse to use/not use for Good or Evil, becoming an Exemplar God to further the rule of Law and Order [bump-bump])

 

vs

 

Chaos (Denying Dad and/or Foster Dad, giving in to the confusion, allowing impulse and creativity to trump the confines of "the Rules", becoming the Slayer or a God that pushes these ideas)

 

vs

 

Neutral (acting for self and perhaps universal salvation by attempting a middle road, denying Godhood unless one of the other arms is dominating, resisting Chaotic Slayer form unless the use is counteracted by an equal sacrifice for Law, meta-religious observations about choosing not to be a pawn in service to any one side, etc)

 

is one lane where much fun could be had with the tension, but ALL of the other alignments/points of view would certainly give rise to huge forces acting for and against <CHARNAME>, as the rise through the ranks of his Order pushes other Orders into conflict with him/her/it/yougettheidea.

 

I know, I know... deep issues, too many philosophy classes, and it's just a game. But it's a GREAT game, and deserves the attention of Deep Thinkin'.

[Lemernis]

I happen to be playing BG2 now, and just went through the part where the protagonist is confronted by the avatar of Bhaal in a dream, and morphs into the Slayer, etc. At least in terms of connecting this proposed mod's paladin story with SoA's story, there's no question but that Bhaal's 'energy' is that of mindless mayhem. It's clearly rageful and destructive and all about loss of control. In D&D Bhaal seems more cold and calculating, far more of an assassin type of schemer perhaps. But the test of the character for the hero in BG's story is whether he will succumb to temptation to surrender his individuality to some kind of primordial Chaos with the promise that it will make him into a god.

 

The second story arc introduced in this mod would be that Sarevok and Irenicus both have competition from the high priest of a Deathstalker cult. Deathstalkers are devotees of Bhaal who seek to raise him. The leader of this Deathstalker faction is also Bhaalspawn (of course). But he has managed to hide himself as the highest ranking cleric of a knightly order of a prosocial faith, for which paladins play a vital role. The church of Helm would be a pretty good choice, given the promience of Helmite temples in both Baldur's Gate and Shadows of Amn.

 

Sarevok, in his machinations to stir up a war on the Sword Coast, thinks that he is maipulating this head of the Helmite church. However, Sarevok fails to detect that the arch villain in our paladin tale is in fact a powerful rival who also seeks to raise Bhaal and become his highest ranking priest. To Sarevok our second villain appears to be a willing dupe. But in fact he is aware of Sarevgok's plans, and hopes to use our protagonist to convert to the dark side--for the hero to become a Blackguard of Bhaal, one powerful enough to bring a dark army under him, fulfill Sraevok's plans of war, and then to vanquish Sarevok.

 

As we all know, Sarevok must die. So at the conclusion of BG1 our head of the leader of the church of Helm can be satisfied either way. And the protagonist will be none the wiser. Whether the character is a paladin or a Blackguard, our second arch villain remains unconfronted.

 

If the character followed the dark side and became Fallen he then he will enter BG2 as such. He will continue the relationship with the leader of the Deathstalker cult. In BG2 he may become a Blackguard. The protagonist is now as a Deathstalker himself, a follower of Bhaal, seeking to raise the dead god. He will therefore welcome Irenicus' harsh tests, using the ordeal to grow his own power. He will eventually face down the Deathstalker cult leader and take his place at the top. And of course go on to defeat Irenicus in due course.

 

If the paladin remained true to his Helmite ethos, he will eventually discover that he was maipulated. His quest to regain paladin status will be to defeat the leader of the Deathstalker cult.

 

And beyond that... well, I'll have to come up with that over the next month or so. After years of ToB sitting on my shelf, I'm finally getting around to playing it! I'll be continuing on to that when I finish the current BG2 game. (So please don't spoil me! ;P)

[cmorgan]

cool !

[Andyr]

We'd thought of a story arc a little like this for Lands of Intrigue and another mod, though nothing's come of it yet. It'll be interesting to see how you progress.

[Thauron]

I agree with the posters above, this sounds really promising. I wish you much luck with it.