General Viccy debate...

[Zandilar]

(this post has been substantially Modified)

 

This quest is something that will hopefully be discussed further at http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php?board=19.0 but, for now, is nothing.  But that scenario conjure's interesting ideas. I agree that it needs work but think it would answer a lot of the 'just what's the deal with Viconia anyway' questions and attach her to the group more firmly in the end, because it cannot succeed.. if that makes sense.  I thought you might appreciate the "She realizes, though, that she never enjoyed life amongst the drow...and now truly no longer belongs there" 

 

I do appreciate the relization involved with the quest. There probably are ways to make it work, but the trouble is, Shar isn't the sort to let Viconia get away with such a lapse. There'd be some kind of punishment, if not out right death waiting for her. Even if Shar was in a forgiving mood, I think Viconia would have to atone before being granted spells again... (Yeah, I am fixated on deities and how they work!)

 

I don't think we really want a "Viconia always leaves the party" type scenario.

Jaheira leaves a few times, why not Viconia? Or, do you mean gone as in gone for good?

 

Yes, that's what I mean. Either she's successful (remaining with the drow), or the drow just outright kill her, or she thinks she won't be accepted back into the party (which is entirely possible), or Shar just outright kills her for her impudence.

 

 

I like her ..neutral, don't get me wrong but I think the only reason it'd need to start in SoA is because ToB is too short.  I like the end-game to her relationship in SoA and to begin a 'neutralizing' process in SoA would mess with that.  And, in a way, it is a process in SoA as well; it occurs to me that her's really is a love conquers all story, in that it is only her relationship with the PC (and lack thereof in the beginning of ToB) that becomes the basis for her to question anything of an emotional nature. (was that mentioned by you before? ..the love conquers all bit?  )

 

I just think the PC could or should say a few things that might get Viconia thinking... But outwardly Viconia would be her same old self, complete with the same flippant dismissal of anything that might be construed as "weak".

 

"Amor vincit omnia" is one of my two mottos. The other being "Audaces fortuna iuvat" (I'd be a Tymoran if I lived in Faerun)... But I am a great believer in the love of friends and family, as well as romantic love. Which is why I think also that you shouldn't have to be Viconia's lover to get her to change.

 

 

 

To a point, yes.  (I'm definitely being stubborn on this point  )  But several of her dialogues do hint at the f*ck you attitude that she should have - which, imo, is indicitave of the cop-out on bioWare's part.

 

Plenty of good aligned characters have a f*ck you attitude. It's what motivates them that's different. Bioware really does cop out on evil in their games, but honestly I don't blame them. Evil most certainly isn't cool...

 

Beyond that, I think the only thing that tires her is: she is out of her element and alone.  The next step would be wanting to be accepted and, imo,  she's too drow for that yet.  (I'll get it out, coherently, one of these days).  I'm left wondering if you think that's what she wants but doesn't know it? (to be accepted?) 

 

Hmmm... Viconia tries to settle down and form some kind of friendly relationship with a neighbour... who takes advantage of that. Why did she trust this guy at all if she didn't want acceptance? She might not conciously realise that is what she's looking for, but it almost certainly is why she let her guard down in Beregost. So yes, that is what I think.

 

If you take her down the road you seem to be suggesting it would almost have to mean having a different ending than the male relationship.. I think.  Which would be risky, to say the least.

 

I'm not really sure. The idea is to conform to the same basic structure of the male romance, with the exception that, at the point where the male PC first sleeps with Viconia, with a female PC she's at the point where she realises the female PC is actually interested, and commences flirting... I do intend for Viconia to eventually break it off (at the last SoA conversation if I remember rightly), just like she does with a male PC. Lots of this speculation on my part is simply that, and will probably lead nowhere.

 

Without the cut quest, mentioned above, she does.  But she is like most passionate characters who suffer ..lapses, not necessarily in judgement but of reality in certain moments of crisis, I think.  But then, I would be arguing for why the cut quest could work, and I don't want to do that here.  Needless to say, I think she does know.. with Lolth hunting her in the end of SoA, how could she not?

 

People do lapse in judgement and make foolish choices. I just can't see any way through that quest without the loss of Viconia in one way or another... But I won't say any more on that here either.

 

I am aware of Shar and Lolth.. learned quite a bit about Shar in other deity discussions, and Lolth thru Salvatore and discussions (Salvatore is a putz but it's still canon yes?).  And, because of the nature of evil and chaos, it makes sense that they would be rivals.  But no, I didn't realize that they were.

 

While it is true that they may not know that they are enemies... (Actually, I'm sure Shar is aware that Lolth is a potential enemy - she is, after all, a Greater Deity)... They certianly aren't allies or friends, and I really can't see them working together.

 

 

It struck me that This is why Viconia Should meet the end of her days if she stays with the PC - he will most likely convert her, and she, subsequently, would then have to face that eventuality.. in that lapse is when Lolth has her greatest opportunity to finally take revenge.  Or, it's something as simple as I've said before - Viconia's story, with the PC, is supposed to be tragic ..just as she promises.

 

I actually hate Viconia's ending as it stands. I won't try to couch this in pretty reasoned terms - the reason I don't like it is because it's unhappy. I like my happy endings. Happy endings allow me to escape the world of sorrow that we all live in... at least for a while. It allows me to truely believe "amor vincit omnia" - because even if Viconia converts to TN, even if she's happy with her love - she still dies... Love doesn't conquor anything. Viconia is still dead...

 

Now, couching it in pretty reasoned terms...

 

Lolth seems to spend an awful lot of effort tracking Viconia down. If Lolth was Lawful Evil, I'd agree that she might do it. But Lolth is often described as fickle, and I'm not sure if one small unimportant ex-worshiper is worth all that effort... Now you might turn around and say "but she's really high level now" - that doesn't signify anything! Yes, Lolth could kill Viconia... but how about Viconia's friends with ressurection spells bring her back? Lolth could kill Viconia, and if Viconia was loyal and faithful to ANY deity - She's just sent her on to her ultimate reward!! Stupid, huh?

 

That doesn't mean I'm setting out to change that either... I still have a long way to go yet.

 

Anyway, that's it from me for now.

[Cybersquirt]

This quest is something that will hopefully be discussed further  here  

I do appreciate the relization involved with the quest. There probably are ways to make it work, but the trouble is, Shar isn't the sort to let Viconia get away with such a lapse. There'd be some kind of punishment, if not out right death waiting for her. Even if Shar was in a forgiving mood, I think Viconia would have to atone before being granted spells again... (Yeah, I am fixated on deities and how they work!)

..and with that, it's started there. Mind if I copy what you said? Or maybe you'll head over there and post it yourself.

 

.."Audaces fortuna iuvat" (I'd be a Tymoran if I lived in Faerun)... But I am a great believer in the love of friends and family, as well as romantic love. Which is why I think also that you shouldn't have to be Viconia's lover to get her to change.

I don't know what that second phrase is. Imo, the game made it a relationship based change because they make her such a sexual being. It is only after the break-up that she realizes what ..is what and is willing to forgo consequences.

 

. Evil most certainly isn't cool...

Never said it was, but as there are degrees of good, so too are there degrees of evil.

 

It struck me that This is why Viconia Should meet the end of her days if she stays with the PC - he will most likely convert her, and she, subsequently, would then have to face that eventuality.. in that lapse is when Lolth has her greatest opportunity to finally take revenge.  Or, it's something as simple as I've said before - Viconia's story, with the PC, is supposed to be tragic ..just as she promises.

 

I actually hate Viconia's ending as it stands. I won't try to couch this in pretty reasoned terms - the reason I don't like it is because it's unhappy. I like my happy endings. Happy endings allow me to escape the world ofgibberlings3.net sorrow that we all live in... at least for a while. It allows me to truely believe "amor vincit omnia" - because even if Viconia converts to TN, even if she's happy with her love - she still dies... Love doesn't conquor anything. Viconia is still dead...

 

Now, couching it in pretty reasoned terms...

 

Lolth seems to spend an awful lot of effort tracking Viconia down. If Lolth was Lawful Evil, I'd agree that she might do it. But Lolth is often described as fickle, and I'm not sure if one small unimportant ex-worshiper is worth all that effort... Now you might turn around and say "but she's really high level now" - that doesn't signify anything! Yes, Lolth could kill Viconia... but how about Viconia's friends with ressurection spells bring her back? Lolth could kill Viconia, and if Viconia was loyal and faithful to ANY deity - She's just sent her on to her ultimate reward!! Stupid, huh?

 

but love does 'conquer' Viconia.. isn't that enough? I mean that, only in the sense that she does a 90 degree turn for it. Sometimes it's enough to get the girl and that is the happy ending. Based on her upbringing, she is willing to change her evil ways for you, even to marry you; I think this is major good. Another way of looking at it is, maybe it's bioWare's way of making her loyal to her deity Shar - loss, among other things, right? Ultimately, I HATE when everything ends happy; it's So unrealistic.

 

..and, I don't see CE Lolth giving up. Chaotic. Evil. right? She (Lolth) lost more than a cleric, in Viconia, she lost a powerful house in the fallout of Viconia's fateful decision. While Lolth revels in the intrigue and chaos and deceit, Lolth cannot/will not suffer unfaithful transgressions lightly. The initial trangression - Lolth's gonna forget about that? Regardless, I think the scenario is completely reasonable. Why did Lolth come after Viconia in the game? Because Viconia was happy, because Viconia won in spite of disfavoring Lolth. Does Lolth care if she sends Viconia onto her ultimate reward? Doubtful.. she will have gotten her revenge.

[BevH]

QUOTE (Zandilar @ Apr 11 2004, 06:59 PM)

 

I actually hate Viconia's ending as it stands. I won't try to couch this in pretty reasoned terms - the reason I don't like it is because it's unhappy. I like my happy endings. Happy endings allow me to escape the world of sorrow that we all live in... at least for a while. It allows me to truely believe "amor vincit omnia" - because even if Viconia converts to TN, even if she's happy with her love - she still dies... Love doesn't conquor anything. Viconia is still dead...

 

There's always the option of writing your own epilogue. I hated the ending for CN Anomen, so I amended this epilogue.

[Meira]

As for Viconia's ending... When I first saw it I was dumbstruck - it was like; she dies?? SHE DIES?? But at least it had an effect. A nice, happy would not had been so memorable I think. It takes a lot of strength to kill you favourite character, as we would naturally want best to those we care about. 'Kill your darlings' - isn't that what they say to writers?

 

-Meira

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

.."Audaces fortuna iuvat" (I'd be a Tymoran if I lived in Faerun)... But I am a great believer in the love of friends and family, as well as romantic love. Which is why I think also that you shouldn't have to be Viconia's lover to get her to change.

I don't know what that second phrase is. Imo, the game made it a relationship based change because they make her such a sexual being. It is only after the break-up that she realizes what ..is what and is willing to forgo consequences.

 

"Audaces fortuna iuvat" is "Fortune favours the bold".

 

Sexual being or not, I still feel friendship is equally important than romantic relationships. It should be possible to help Viconia through her alignment change with friendship alone.

 

Oddly enough I've spoken at great length about this on the bioware Knights of the Old Republic forums. Bioware places too great an emphasis on romantic relationships, and forgets friendships. If you believe Bioware, it's not possible for a woman to be friends with another woman, at the very least they ignore each other, and at the very best they're catty towards one another. *shrug*

 

I think, maybe, with the friendship I might also put a gap in... Kind of a "you're getting too close to me, and perhaps that isn't a good thing... I can work with you, but I don't think we can be friends"... if that makes sense... where the romances break off...

 

. Evil most certainly isn't cool...

Never said it was, but as there are degrees of good, so too are there degrees of evil.

 

Dungeons and Dragons tends to be rather black and white in terms of alignment... Leave the degrees of evil for the real world.

 

but love does 'conquer' Viconia.. isn't that enough?  I mean that, only in the sense that she does a 90 degree turn for it.  Sometimes it's enough to get the girl and that is the happy ending.  Based on her upbringing, she is willing to change her evil ways for you, even to marry you; I think this is major good.  Another way of looking at it is, maybe it's bioWare's way of making her loyal to her deity Shar - loss, among other things, right?  Ultimately, I HATE when everything ends happy; it's So unrealistic. 

 

This is a fantasy role playing game. Since when were Dragons and Drow realistic? They aren't. Why, then, should the game be "realistic" in it's ending?

 

Yes. The world is full of sorrow and angst. I prefer to get away from it.

 

Besides, I can prove that Viconia's death epilogue is just as unrealistic within the context of the game.

 

For a start, a cleric needs be to be just 7th level to cast the spell Neutralize Poison. There is nothing in the epilogue that mentions that the poison was special in any way. Heck, Viconia herself is capable of casting the spell, and has been pretty much from the start of Baldur's Gate 2!! This is also not to mention the Wish spell line of a Wizard... Even if she's debilitated and/or otherwise unable to cast Neutralize Poison, and the PC is not a Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Wizard it's not the end...

 

A cleric needs to be just 9th level before they can cast the spell Raise Dead. What if the PC is a cleric? You think the PC is just going to leave Viconia dead without any attempt to raise her? Even if the PC isn't a cleric, he/she is sure to at least know one or be able to find one he/she can pay with his/her conciderable hoarde of money... If that wasn't enough, the spells Limited Wish and Wish are both capable of simulating Ressurection or Raise Dead... The PC knows at least one high level mage (Imoen), who would be more than capable of casting both.

 

But nooooo that would get in the way of the story, so we conveniently forget them... Just as we also forget the spell Regeneration is more than capable of restoring Aerie's wings to her...

 

..and, I don't see CE Lolth giving up.  Chaotic.  Evil.  right?  She (Lolth) lost more than a cleric, in Viconia, she lost a powerful house in the fallout of Viconia's fateful decision.  While Lolth revels in the intrigue and chaos and deceit, Lolth cannot/will not suffer unfaithful transgressions lightly.  The initial trangression - Lolth's gonna forget about that?  Regardless, I think the scenario is completely reasonable.  Why did Lolth come after Viconia in the game?  Because Viconia was happy, because Viconia won in spite of disfavoring Lolth.  Does Lolth care if she sends Viconia onto her ultimate reward?  Doubtful.. she will have gotten her revenge.

 

Yes, well I have had a chance to think about it, and agree that Lolth is likely to at least attempt something. But She wouldn't do it herself directly, She has much bigger things to worry about. However, sending Viconia on to her final reward would only be a phyrric victory for Her... Not terribly satisfying at all... Let us not forget, either, that Viconia doesn't end up dead in the non-romance epilogue. In fact, it even looks like she eventually turned away from Shar! She helped defeat the Knights of the Shield (an evil group), helped Drizzt Do'Urden defeat a Zhentarim plot, and was even accepted by the elves of Suldanessellar. Not a single rotten peep out of Lolth in that epilogue!

 

However, as I said above, why can't Viconia just be ressurected after her death? What stops that? Nothing that I can see, it's not even like the person who killed her attempted to make sure she could never be brought back to life - nothing in the epilogue specifically mentions that the poison was special, or that measures had been taken to ensure that she couldn't be brought back. (There are ways to stop Ressurection, but there is no way to stop a Wish. And we are talking about characters of up to 40th level - which means that both spells are available to the PC in one form or another.)

 

Lastly, there is going to have to be a new epilogue written, because unless Viconia and a female PC use a Wish spell or something, it's not possible for them to produce a child. (Don't worry, I'll be basing it on the male one, I'm not here to rewrite history, after all, despite my arguments about the ridiculousness of the epilogue as it stands.)

 

Hmm maybe not so lastly... I have one more comment...

 

In the romanced epilogue... Viconia is refered to as "his dark maiden". Dark Maiden is an appelation commonly associated with Eilistraee... I wonder what that means? (Of course, Viconia is certianly not a maiden, but I'll just let that one slide! )

[Cybersquirt]

I'm not forgetting that an ascension Viconia (if we ascend, not Ascension) lives. I don't want you to prove anything; frankly, that word is giving me a headache.

 

DnD.. there aren't varying degrees of evil?

 

I'd have to take issue with romantic love being the same as friendship love: rare is the intimacy any greater between true friends than it is between true lovers; if it was, I'd suggest that it wasn't really true love to begin with. It's a great notion, and say about realism/fantasy what you will, but it's not realistic either.

 

(and I'm loosing focus so I'm bowing out) I'll check in (much) later.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

I'm not forgetting that an ascension Viconia (if we ascend, not Ascension) lives.  I don't want you to prove anything; frankly, that word is giving me a headache. 

 

DnD.. there aren't varying degrees of evil?

 

Well silly me made a sweeping generalization...

 

There are three main types of Evil. Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil. If there are degrees, these are commonly determined by the DM. It is to him/her that the job of warning players when they're acting out of alignment falls, and it is for him/her to determine what degrees of evil his/her bad guys fall into.

 

In an environment without a DM. such as a computer game, there are no degrees of evil beyond what is programmed into the game itself. And you'd have to agree that the "degrees" of evil programmed into BG2 are pretty pathetic.

 

I'd have to take issue with romantic love being the same as friendship love: rare is the intimacy any greater between true friends than it is between true lovers; if it was, I'd suggest that it wasn't really true love to begin with.  It's a great notion, and say about realism/fantasy what you will, but it's not realistic either. 

 

This one, I'm now going to leave alone. It's highly subjective and it's rapidly becoming aparent to me that my view is totally warped and completely different to everyone else's...

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

As for Viconia's ending... When I first saw it I was dumbstruck - it was like; she dies?? SHE DIES?? But at least it had an effect. A nice, happy would not had been so memorable I think. It takes a lot of strength to kill you favourite character, as we would naturally want best to those we care about. 'Kill your darlings' - isn't that what they say to writers?

Heh, just remembered I was going to reply to this...

 

And good writers learn when NOT to listen to what THEY say.

 

(Which is not to say that you never kill main characters, more to say a writer should do what is good for the story - and if the story "says" that it's not okay to kill that character, then don't do it.)

 

The story was definitely against Viconia's death. She only dies in the romanced ending - no mention of Lolth's wrath in the non-romanced ending, and in many ways the non-romanced ending is the better of the two - certianly the implication is that eventually she fights for the side of Good... Not to mention that the game mechanisms that would easily counter/avoid Viconia's death were completely ignored, which is very poor form - but unfortunately all too common!!

[Cybersquirt]

This one, I'm now going to leave alone. It's highly subjective and it's rapidly becoming aparent to me that my view is totally warped and completely different to everyone else's...

(romantic idealism perhaps? ) Subjective indeed, but what isn't? I don't think a friendship with Viconia is out of the realm of possibilities but, imo, could not have the same profound effect on Viconia; and it would probably be a huge minefield. A platonic friendship would not be employing that common language with her - sex. She's not capable of feeling (or identifying anything) in many other terms. Think about it.. when are you most vulnerable? Do you display such open submission in anything else as when you give yourself to love or your lover. ..and the act itself; I think you get the point.

 

When she does feel something else, as when we hold her and she feels something as simple as security, it's completely foreign to her.

 

you'd have to agree that the "degrees" of evil programmed into BG2 are pretty pathetic

Ayuh. We've covered that already.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

This one, I'm now going to leave alone. It's highly subjective and it's rapidly becoming aparent to me that my view is totally warped and completely different to everyone else's...

(romantic idealism perhaps? ) Subjective indeed, but what isn't? I don't think a friendship with Viconia is out of the realm of possibilities but, imo, could not have the same profound effect on Viconia; and it would probably be a huge minefield. A platonic friendship would not be employing that common language with her - sex. She's not capable of feeling (or identifying anything) in many other terms. Think about it.. when are you most vulnerable? Do you display such open submission in anything else as when you give yourself to love or your lover. ..and the act itself; I think you get the point.

 

When she does feel something else, as when we hold her and she feels something as simple as security, it's completely foreign to her.

 

Bah, I said i was going to try and avoid this because I just don't seem to be standing on the same ground as most other people on this.

 

Can you offer comfort and security to someone you're not having sex with? Absolutely! Could I hold a friend while they cried? While they were scared? Sure could. Would that mean I was going to jump into bed with them at the next opportunity? No... Not unless they wanted it, and I wanted it. Would I throw myself in front of a bus if I thought it would save the life of a friend? Yep. Would that mean I'd jump into bed with them? Nope. Not unless we both wanted it.

 

Some of the most moving relationships in movies and literature are simple friendships. Frodo and Sam, for instance. Gabrielle and Xena for another... But it's ridiculous. It's got to the point where society has drawn this line between love and sex, and can no longer truely distinguish the difference. Look at what was spawned by the Xena and Gabrielle phenomena... Granted the people who made Xena: Warrior Princess played up the subtext at certain points, but in the end it was just a friendship.

 

The drow don't treat sex like we do. It is something to do for pleasure. There is no love involved... I believe that a friendship relationship with Viconia has the potential to have a far greater impact than someone who is just in it for a quick roll in the hay.

 

Sex doesn't equal Love... Especially not in drow society.

 

Anyway, what do you think of ministers, councellors, and psychologists? All of them must form intimate connections to the people they help and/or serve... And generally speaking, they don't have sex with the people who need them. (Yes, I am fully aware that some of them break the trust that is formed between them and the people they're helping, but that is not how it's supposed to work - and most times that does more harm than good.)

 

Anyway, that is it for me on this topic. If you can't see my point now, you're never going to see it.

 

Maybe Batman and Robin were having sex and we don't know it, that is how Batman made Robin change... *wanders off muttering to herself...*

[Cybersquirt]

Maybe Batman and Robin were having sex and we don't know it, that is how Batman made Robin change... *wanders off muttering to herself...*

LOL.. that's an image I definitely did not need.

 

I'll leave you alone about it then. Suffice it to I really do know the difference between ..all sorts of things.

 

(and, based on the points you raise, I didn't explain my position well enough. Ah well. )

 

(last edit: there are only minor differences in the way we see this issue)

[JPS]

Heya,

 

Can you offer comfort and security to someone you're not having sex with? Absolutely! Could I hold a friend while they cried? While they were scared? Sure could. Would that mean I was going to jump into bed with them at the next opportunity? No... Not unless they wanted it, and I wanted it. Would I throw myself in front of a bus if I thought it would save the life of a friend? Yep. Would that mean I'd jump into bed with them? Nope. Not unless we both wanted it.

 

Some of the most moving relationships in movies and literature are simple friendships. Frodo and Sam, for instance. Gabrielle and Xena for another... But it's ridiculous. It's got to the point where society has drawn this line between love and sex, and can no longer truely distinguish the difference. Look at what was spawned by the Xena and Gabrielle phenomena... Granted the people who made Xena: Warrior Princess played up the subtext at certain points, but in the end it was just a friendship.

 

The drow don't treat sex like we do. It is something to do for pleasure. There is no love involved... I believe that a friendship relationship with Viconia has the potential to have a far greater impact than someone who is just in it for a quick roll in the hay.

 

Sex doesn't equal Love... Especially not  in drow society.

I've been following the discussion on and off, and I thought this might be a good time to say that I totally agree.

 

(Incidentally, I think all af the romanceable NPCs – possibly excluding Jaheira – have happier endings if you don't romance them)

[Cybersquirt]

er.. Aerie and Anomen are happier without you? Jaheira is miserable, yes.

[JPS]

I definitely think Aerie is. I probably shouldn't bring up my complaints about the Aerie romance here, but I basically think it makes her depend on the main character far too much. In the non-romanced ending, she gets to make her own decisions and her own mistakes, which I think is better for her. But there I go making decisions for her again. I'm probably worse than the main character...

 

I must admit that I sort of forgot Anomen since I've never romanced him.

[Bri]

And if anything, as the Forgotten Realms is kind of a reflection of world history at various points, there are definitely customs of people having a relationship without it being physical...or being in love, without anything coming of it. Courtly love, especially with paladins comes to mind, and Anomen does suffer from some aspects of this initially. Shame they didn't handle it better.

 

But as mentioned in drow society, physical satiation is the point, not any emotional attachment to the acts. This is one part of the Viconia romance I do think that BioWare tried to take a stab at, but kinda muddled carrying the intent through.

 

As for Batman? Well, he did keep a small boy in a cave...