General Viccy debate...

[Cybersquirt]

But as mentioned in drow society, physical satiation is the point, not any emotional attachment to the acts. 

I'm aware of that; Viconia says it even/still in ToB. But it is still a commonality that a PC would not have were they not sleeping with Viconia -- seems to me it's the only thing she shares with you.

 

Do you (anyone) really think she would open up to a 'friend'? If she's even capable of a friendship it would be loaded with the same landmines, especially once we got close to her (she trusts us). Then, if sex is for nothing but gratification - why does she talk of defeating her and offering it up as our reward? (I personally think it means more than one thing but... whatever) If it means nothing, why does she awaken with a very different attitude? What in-road would a 'friend' have? She approaches the PC with her story because she is attracted to him. She makes it obvious before we even begin to get anything more than general talk from her.

 

So does that spark exist in Viconia or not? Or, is it only capable of allowing her a friendship. Lest we forget, the drow don't have friends either. (forgive the sarcasm, if you will, I am feeling a bit defensive.)

 

Zandilar, I don't dispute that there are very intimate friendships; I've had a few actually, nor do I dispute that they have power. To suggest that I don't know what they are, honestly, is almost insulting. I don't dispute that society has lost it's focus about them, hell, it's lost focus on a lot more than that. There are still plenty of good fairy tales to go around, though (Prince Charming comes to mind; hugs not drugs; good guys finish first).

 

My prior post was merely a reflection of my opinion that Viconia is not capable of one. I'm left wondering... a lot of things, but I'll stop wasting your time and my energy.

 

(low bow)

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

But as mentioned in drow society, physical satiation is the point, not any emotional attachment to the acts. 

I'm aware of that; Viconia says it even/still in ToB. But it is still a commonality that a PC would not have were they not sleeping with Viconia -- seems to me it's the only thing she shares with you.

 

That would depend a lot on the character. If you were a NE follower of Shar, then you'd have a lot more in common with Viconia than a LG follower of Torm or a CG follower of Sune.

 

Do you (anyone) really think she would open up to a 'friend'?  If she's even capable of a friendship it would be loaded with the same landmines, especially once we got close to her (she trusts us).  Then, if sex is for nothing but gratification - why does she talk of defeating her and offering it up as our reward?  (I personally think it means more than one thing but... whatever)  If it means nothing, why does she awaken with a very different attitude?  What in-road would a 'friend' have?  She approaches the PC with her story because she is attracted to him.  She makes it obvious before we even begin to get anything more than general talk from her.

 

Actually, that is the second time she has sex with the male PC. So obviously something has changed between the first time (where she actively berates the male PC the next day) and the second time. Don't you think this might just be some kind of friendship forming? One based on learning how to trust?

 

The first time she sleeps with a male PC is with this exchange...

 

If you would... if you would... please sit with me for a moment before you retire, I would be thankful.  I find myself uncharacteristically overcome with anxiety and I am not... eager... to be alone for the evening.

 

She basically tells the PC that she's scared of Lolth's minions - which is actually showing trust already. She doesn't trust the male PC because he sleeps with her, she's already starting to trust him enough to confess her deepest fears. If this isn't a sign of a friendship developing between them, I don't know what is.

 

She's frightened enough to reach out physically, andgibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netgibberlings3.net she hates herself afterwards for showing such "weakness"... Which is why she berates the PC the following morning (no matter if he chose to sleep with her or not). I think she's probably very confused at that point.

 

I'm curious, what do you think it means?

 

So does that spark exist in Viconia or not?  Or, is it only capable of allowing her a friendship.  Lest we forget, the drow don't have friends either. (forgive the sarcasm, if you will, I am feeling a bit defensive.)

 

It's okay, I can understand that. I'm afraid I've been very touchy myself lately, and may have said a few things that have been misconstrued. I personally would like to see there is some kind of spark of redemption (or "goodness" if you like) in Viconia... That she can learn a new way of being, where trust is not a weakness. Which is part of the reason why I'm writing this mod. If she can't, if this doesn't exist within the character - and I'm just looking at her with wishful thinking - then I really shouldn't be doing this. If there is "no other way" to befriend or otherwise get involved with Viconia, I may as well just go through and replace all the masculine pronouns with tokens, and make the romance the same no matter the gender of the player. (And no, there is no sarcasm in that at all, and no sacrasm in this aside... I am really just tired to the bone tonight, and about ready to give up on a lot of things...)

 

Zandilar, I don't dispute that there are very intimate friendships; I've had a few actually, nor do I dispute that they have power.  To suggest that I don't know what they are, honestly, is almost insulting.  I don't dispute that society has lost it's focus about them, hell, it's lost focus on a lot more than that.  There are still plenty of good fairy tales to go around, though (Prince Charming comes to mind; hugs not drugs; good guys finish first). 

 

My prior post was merely a reflection of my opinion that Viconia is not capable of one.  I'm left wondering... a lot of things, but I'll stop wasting your time and my energy.

 

(low bow)

 

I am very sorry, I didn't mean to imply that at all. I am sorry if I offended you.

 

If Viconia isn't capable of friendship, how on Toril could she ever by in a truely loving intimate relationship with anyone? As far as has been my experience, a romantic/intimate relationship has friendship as its basis. My personal definition of friendship has trust as its core. Without trust there is no relationship, intimate or otherwise. So if you don't think Viconia is capable of trust then she's not capable of having any sort of relationship with anyone, beyond "I know this person, and have had dealings with them before". In my opinion, trust is what seperates friends from aquaintances.

 

Anyway, it's very late... I should probably leave this before I say anything else dumb.

[Cybersquirt]

thank you for the clarification, thank you for the ..apology. I've become a bit ..unfocused, myself, along with the things mentioned in the email I sent.

 

I apologize too and am going to give myself a little break from this thread; maybe someone else can speak up in the meantime.. I know there's quite a few of you following this. I feel like I've held it hostage and that was certainly not my intent.

 

Ultimately, I'm not sure if I'm doing more harm than good. If you're getting anything from these ..discussions.. I'll be back.

 

til then, peace.

[keegdarv]

I just found this bg2 website not to lon ago and i just became apart of this thread just to say this. I love that your doing this project Viconia is my favortive character in the game and I love the drow all together. So out of all the mods being made I look foward to this one the most. Love the idea, Love Viconia and Great Luck making it.

[Grim Squeaker]

I just found this bg2 website not to lon ago and i just became apart of this thread just to say this.  I love that your doing this project Viconia is my favortive character in the game and I love the drow all together.  So out of all the mods being made I look foward to this one the most.  Love the idea, Love Viconia and Great Luck making it.

That's the kind of post I like...

[Guest Arthas]

The creator of the Forgotten Realms, Ed Greenwood (whom I mentioned in my initial post), has basically said that the Realms are a lot more tollerant than our own world... And yet there is barely a peep about people's attitides to sex and sexuality mentioned in any product - that is because the editors and publishers all have to deal with our own sexually repressive social mores. This includes the writers of the BG series, who have to comply with what Wizards (and ultimately Hasbro) say. Wizards/Hasbro has a "family friendly" policy, which makes it a no-no to mention non-standard sexualities (though mention of heterosexual vanilia sex is allowable). This and this alone is the reason Viconia is depicted as so aggresively straight. Notice that none of the romances show any inclinations away from standard heterosexuality... and in fact, they often sicken me with their stereotyping.

I was reading through the locked thread and wanted to address these comments made by Zandilar.

 

You say that BioWare avoided the creation of homosexual/bisexual characters in order to avoid controversy, but don't you think it's possible that Viconia was written to be so "aggresively straight" simply because she was straight?

 

Another important factor to remember is that Baldur's Gate 2 was developed with male gamers in mind first and foremost because they constitute such a huge share of the market. Saying that developers should cater for female gamers is fine since female gamers (the majority of which are straight) are on the rise, but asking them to cater for an even smaller "lesbian market" is pushing it. Therefore I doubt the idea ever crossed BioWare's collective mind when the time came to writing Viconia's romance.

[Guest Saddam Smelly]

yeah i agree with arthas. if chloe was never mentioned as being lesbian and it was your first time playing through that mod, where she insults all men, and tries to flirt with a few women (the polar opposite of what viconia does) would you think she was gay or straight? i think i already know the answer.

 

it seems very hypocritical of bioware to write a character so aggressively straight if they deep down mean for her to be gay in any fashion. i mean, if they wanted to make her be interpreted as a bisexual person then she would atleast not narrow it down in her romance that she's only ever had sex with men. she would just say that she's had a lot of sex. you see my point? i mean, i think you said yourself that the underdark has no qualms about who you have sex with and yet viconia says this:

 

"If I had no male to service me in the Underdark I slept alone."

 

surely if they meant for her to be interpreted as gay in any way then she would say

 

"If I had nobody to service me in the Underdark I slept alone." and im sure hasbro/whoever would find that allowable

 

just one example anyway

[Grim Squeaker]

A female wouldn't service her.

[Lord Ernie]

Just browsing these forums, and I found this rather interesting debate. I think I'll have to agree with Arthas and Saddam here, since I think Viconia is quite straight (read: VERY straight). Rather than having any arguments for it, it's just an opinion, based on her original dialogue. As now to commenting other people's points (I'm better at that ):

 

Another important factor to remember is that Baldur's Gate 2 was developed with male gamers in mind first and foremost because they constitute such a huge share of the market. Saying that developers should cater for female gamers is fine since female gamers (the majority of which are straight) are on the rise, but asking them to cater for an even smaller "lesbian market" is pushing it. Therefore I doubt the idea ever crossed BioWare's collective mind when the time came to writing Viconia's romance.

 

I don't think it's entirely true that they never thought of creating a homosexual (of any kind) romance, but from what I've read from their own reactions. it's more like this: they didn't know if the idea of romances would work. They wrote up the existing romances, more or less testing the market for it. As for the specifics of the Viconia romance, I've no idea.

 

As for the future, there are voices coming up on the Bioware boards to include homosexual romances in their next game, Dragon Age. AFAIK, the debate's still going, but the designers answered more or less that they questioned the possible market for it (although perhaps there'd be more of a market for a female - female then a male - male relationship, but this is besides the point).

 

A female wouldn't service her.

 

That depends on your perception, or interpretation. I believe female slaves do exist among the drow (I'm not quite sure), so she could be serviced by a female. Lastly, don't forget that Viconia tends to look down on anybody but her, be it drow or non-drow, so she could see any kind of sex as survicing, and call it like that as well.

[Loké]

Well actually IIRC Delainy from, BGI:TOTSC was actually testing the market for romance. And players went wild. So they did them for BGII. Valgyre and Haer'dalis were going to be other options for the female players but good old deadlines force stuff (such Minsc's quest as well as the romances) to be dropped. You can find fragments of the quests in shadowkeeper 'n stuff.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

*** SPOILERS FOR HOARDS OF THE UNDERDARK AND KOTOR ARE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!! ***

 

I'd just like to open this message by saying I'm getting a little tired of this debate. It's clear that my perception of Viconia is different to other people's. No amount of people coming here (or posting on this issue anywhere else) is going to change my mind on doing this mod. I feel everything that needs to be said on the matter has already been said. Fine. They seem to have written her as aggressively straight - in fact, in some regards it could be said that they wrote her as a man looking for a woman - putting the male PC in the role of the woman (because we all know that drow society is the complete mirror image of our own, so that would cast her in the role of the man ). But there's always been something about her that makes me think she's not quite straight... It's partially due to her interactions (particularly with Jaheira), and I might have even put it down to wishful thinking on my behalf, if others didn't agree with me... The point remains, though, that I'm not going to stop doing this mod just because some people don't approve of it.

 

As for the future, there are voices coming up on the Bioware boards to include homosexual romances in their next game, Dragon Age. AFAIK, the debate's still going, but the designers answered more or less that they questioned the possible market for it (although perhaps there'd be more of a market for a female - female then a male - male relationship, but this is besides the point).

 

There's a huge difference between Baldur's Gate 2 and Dragon Age. Do you know what that is? The absence of Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast. Knights of the Old Republic had that advantage too (KotOR had a lesbian character). If Dragon Age were a DnD spin off, I can guarantee you that there would be no homosexual romances what-so-ever. This is because of Hasbro's draconian "Family Friendly" policy, that even had Bioware eliminate the Festhall and courtesans in Hoards of the Underdark. Even going back to the days when Dungeons and Dragons were owned by TSR, they still had a fairly strict policy in this regard - some things were acceptable (courtesans), but others were not (homosexuals).

 

It's all very confusing at times. Despite Hasbro's "family friendly" policy, there are references to non-standard relationships in some 3rd Ed sources for the Forgotten Realms and novels. There's Yanseldara and her "consort" Vaerana Hawklyn, ruler and head of the watch in Elversult... There's Lliira and her mortal lover who was killed by Loviatarans, who was a woman... There's that stupid arse elf from the Return of the Archwizard's series and his human lover and his elven lover (polygamous relationship)... And really really oddly... In HotU they took out the festhall and courtesans (as I mentioned above), but in the end a male PC can be involved with both female love interests if he plays his cards right (both females accept the arrangement... Once again, polygamous rather than polyamorous).

[Loké]

Nah, I'm not bothered with your view. I can see Viccy doing (wel... this mod) this as plausible.

[Briannandoah]

I would like very much to see this mod finished, since I am always eager to get something new out of the game, and it is also interesting to explore the viewpoints of others over something 'familiar'. It kind of broadens the mind, I think. And to me it is only a game, anyway, and therefore how could there be an ultimate truth in it in any form - I don't even think there is such thing as ultimate truth at all, but that'a another story

 

There can only be subjective views over the matter, as long as it is stated in some official notice by the original writer, and since people tend to view things from the background they have and from the experiences and opinions they have, subjective views are hard to depate over.

 

If I then would write my subjective view here, it would be, that I never thought I had a need to romance Viconia as a female, because I have romanced her as a male PC. So I never thought of her as bisexual, because it was never an important issue to me. To me, all the characters I have played in BGII are different persons, and I always try to forget about the othet PCs I've had, so I always try to look at the game from the view of my PC at the time. So if one of my PCs think Viconia likes only men, then the other might not share his/her opinion at all. Yes, that is as much as I am roleplaying this game, as silly as it may sound (yeah, I know, but having no table top gaming in eons does that to a person... ).

- And for this point I think no one understands anything I am rambling about, so I'd be better to stop this

 

So do go ahead with this mod, I am looking forward to make friends with Viconia with a female PC

[Guest Carolina]

... in some regards it could be said that they wrote her as a man looking for a woman...

lol, weird logic if i ever saw any, i assume that she likes anomen and sarevok because of their feminine qualities - those bulging muscles, those... beards... oh and the penis, let's not forget the penis (do i have to draw with my penis?) and she thinks drizzt is 'delicious' because he's so slim and woman-like, and he reminds her of all those drow males in the underdark that reminded her of women, course, since she obviously doesn't like men, and women in the underdark are so man-like.

 

But there's always been something about her that makes me think she's not quite straight... It's partially due to her interactions (particularly with Jaheira), and I might have even put it down to wishful thinking on my behalf...

which interactions are you talking about? the one where she says Jaheira would be respected in drow society because she's a strong woman? or the one where she calls her a mongrel? or the other one where she calls her a mongrel and other names? or where she insults her and Khalid, saying she was surprised that he could manage to live as long as he had with jaheira around him, yeah jaheira threatens to kill her for that one... oh and she calls her elg'caress too (meaning bitch). sorry, i was confused, there are so many dialogues between them.

 

one thing that I thought of though, is that if hasbro/whoever don't allow talk about homosexuals, then surely they wouldn't allow homophobic talk either? what's their status on that? cuz viconia has a homophobic talk with valygar and its all hidden between a load of romance talks, seems like bioware didnt want them to find it or whatever to me, but wanted it to appear in the game...

 

just saying what i feel anyway

[Lord Ernie]

Well actually IIRC Delainy from, BGI:TOTSC was actually testing the market for romance. And players went wild. So they did them for BGII. Valgyre and Haer'dalis were going to be other options for the female players but good old deadlines force stuff (such Minsc's quest as well as the romances) to be dropped. You can find fragments of the quests in shadowkeeper 'n stuff.

 

Correct, but as I heard (and is quite obivous) even from the initial reaction players had about Delainy, they couldn't be sure how the market would react to such a feature. So putting a few romances in the game (and as you mentioned, some got stripped out anway due to time constraints) was still a good way to find out. Why they didn't put in homosexual romances, I don't know, but a few reasons (the rating?, the publisher?) come to mind, not to forget the aforementioned ones.

 

The point remains, though, that I'm not going to stop doing this mod just because some people don't approve of it.

 

You shouldn't stop doing it. The fact that people can differ in opinion, and talk about it, is one of the base points of a debate. After all, I don't think there are many people that change the opinion they began the debate with anyway, whatever other people's reactions. Being open-minded is what it's all about.

 

There's a huge difference between Baldur's Gate 2 and Dragon Age. Do you know what that is? The absence of Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast. Knights of the Old Republic had that advantage too (KotOR had a lesbian character). If Dragon Age were a DnD spin off, I can guarantee you that there would be no homosexual romances what-so-ever. This is because of Hasbro's draconian "Family Friendly" policy, that even had Bioware eliminate the Festhall and courtesans in Hoards of the Underdark. Even going back to the days when Dungeons and Dragons were owned by TSR, they still had a fairly strict policy in this regard - some things were acceptable (courtesans), but others were not (homosexuals).

 

It's all very confusing at times. Despite Hasbro's "family friendly" policy, there are references to non-standard relationships in some 3rd Ed sources for the Forgotten Realms and novels. There's Yanseldara and her "consort" Vaerana Hawklyn, ruler and head of the watch in Elversult... There's Lliira and her mortal lover who was killed by Loviatarans, who was a woman... There's that stupid arse elf from the Return of the Archwizard's series and his human lover and his elven lover (polygamous relationship)... And really really oddly... In HotU they took out the festhall and courtesans (as I mentioned above), but in the end a male PC can be involved with both female love interests if he plays his cards right (both females accept the arrangement...  Once again, polygamous rather than polyamorous).

 

Hrmmm, quite strange if you ask me. For starters, I recall the existence of prostitutes both in BG2 and NWN (Original Campaign), though as you say, no homosexual relationships whatsoever. Blaming this on Wizards or Hasbro is perhaps somewhat overdone, however, since I seem to recall that any serious references to homosexuality in movies and other forms of media have only begun coming up recently (that is, the last few years), without people getting fussed about it (and some still do). Perhaps games are just a wee bit slower on that front, and the first games with references are arriving only now. Also, remember that homosexual relationships are, for whatever else, still a minority, and this is reflected in more than one market, not only computer games.

 

I'm more interested in this one, though (although I admit it isn't entirely on-topic):

 

Do you know what that is? The absence of Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast. Knights of the Old Republic had that advantage too (KotOR had a lesbian character).

 

I did miss that one, and I finished the game once with a female PC (not one of my habits, I'm not very good at roleplaying them). What character was it, if I may ask?