General Viccy debate...

[Guest Guest]

Juhani, I dunno if she will romance a man though. She DID say to my male PC that she wished she had his heart. That either literally means she wants to rip the heart out of my PC's stomach and keep it as a souveneir or she wants his heart (as an expression of love) so she may be bisexual, I dunno. Every man romances Bastila anyway so you'd have to start a new game and resist the urge to press all those come-on lines with Bastila to see if Juhani says anything new with a man if he's not getting it on with Bastila.

 

Besides, the only other female NPC in the game is Mission, and I doubt they'd make a romance for a 14 year old

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

... in some regards it could be said that they wrote her as a man looking for a woman...

lol, weird logic if i ever saw any, i assume that she likes anomen and sarevok because of their feminine qualities - those bulging muscles, those... beards... oh and the penis, let's not forget the penis (do i have to draw with my penis?) and she thinks drizzt is 'delicious' because he's so slim and woman-like, and he reminds her of all those drow males in the underdark that reminded her of women, course, since she obviously doesn't like men, and women in the underdark are so man-like.

 

You, dear girl (boy?), have just taken me completely literally and out of context. In the relationship, Viconia acts aggressively, which we are told is the way males are supposed to act. The male in the relationship is expected to accept any abuse she might heap on them to make the relationship work, which is how we are told a woman should react. Now do you see what I'm getting at? I am talking about stereotypes here, figuratively as opposed to literally.

 

Or are you one of those who think I'm literally calling Viconia a whore when I call her an Archetypical Whore?

 

Use your brain, and don't waste my time.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

I'm more interested in this one, though (although I admit it isn't entirely on-topic):

 

Do you know what that is? The absence of Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast. Knights of the Old Republic had that advantage too (KotOR had a lesbian character).

 

I did miss that one, and I finished the game once with a female PC (not one of my habits, I'm not very good at roleplaying them). What character was it, if I may ask?

 

 

Everything you wanted to know about a Romance with Juhani but were afraid to ask (including comments by designer Peter Thomas)

 

That should answer your questions. (Including the fact that Juhani telling a male PC that she wishes he had his heart was actually a bug.)

[Guest Carolina]

In the relationship, Viconia acts aggressively, which we are told is the way males are supposed to act. The male in the relationship is expected to accept any abuse she might heap on them to make the relationship work, which is how we are told a woman should react.

forgive me if i've taken you out of context again, though even stereotypically your argument show no thought, it sounds like you think that men are abusive and women always have to sit there and put up with this abuse? in defence of all the boyfriends i've had, and the men on this board, i've been in a lot of relationships (with men and women) and none of the men i've been with have been abusive and i would never have to sit there and put up with it even if they were, and it's not written, or told anywhere that men have to act 'aggressively' in any relationships, i've had to be the 'aggressor' in a lot of my relationships with men, doesn't mean i'm trying to be masculine though, and people aren't set to 'be this way' or anything. these aren't universal laws, women and men act as they are. viconia is not acting as a man would, and the male pc is not playing the role of a woman. this is the forgotten realms, also; men and women have the same rights, unless mr. greenwood has said that men always act aggressively when pursuing a woman in the forgotten realms and also get to abuse her how they wish, but the woman has to put up with it.

 

you may have forgotten that all of the romantic options are aggressive in their pursuit of the pc. they argue and bicker and get very jealous of each other if one of them has been speaking to the pc. viconia is no more aggressive in the romance than aerie or jaheira. sure she flirts with the pc a few times but that's mainly fishing for compliments (and it can be said that aerie does something similar) to make herself feel good that she may have the pc on a leash, it makes her feel better sexually, but other than that she doesn't exactly push for the relationship until after the second time he sleeps with her, she's mainly telling the pc about her life, slowly, unconsciously gaining trust. if viconia was being aggressive she'd move in on him in no time and by the 2nd lovetalk they'd be having sex.

and, anyway, the pc does get the options of being forward a lot of times in all romances, but he's mainly there to listen to them anyway, otherwise, why have all the stories and history?

 

i dont think she's designed as a whore archetype, she's just a very sexual person. whore, even as archetype, is a strong word.

 

and i am quite obviously using my brain. my brain tells me to think logically, reasonably and rationally, it says to look up dialogues that viconia has and not judge her whole personality based on some feeling and one conversation, one that could just as easily be patronising, as we all know jaheira's opinion on the drow, saying she'd make a good drow is an insult to her. i look to everything she's said before i judge her, and i would do before i ever wrote anything about any of the characters. in that light, i would never write a straight juhani romance, even though based on your logic, i could.

 

it's like you telling the people on the bioware forums about the undeniable evidence that juhani is gay and i'm sure you'd think it stupid to write a straight romance with juhani - would you complain at whoever was writing a straight romance with her? well, it's pretty much the equivalent of what's going on here. short on word from david gaider, viconia is undeniably straight anyway, if not through her heterosexual dialogues, then her homophobic ones, and if you don't like them, she always directly or indirectly insults all other women in the party, and there's more proof too. that's pretty much as overwhelming as the evidence you gave for why juhani is gay, and juhani is gay, nothing else, it's how she was designed, yeah?

i'm open minded, i tried to look at viconia's character with that open mind, looking from both angles, but there's only one angle to her, just like there's only the one angle to juhani. i also find it a bit weird that you say what evidence you had for juhani being lesbian was overwhelming, yet there's even more evidence for viconia being heterosexual and you don't seem to think of it as overwhelming.

 

sorry if i sound harsh but i did look extensively into viconia's character, and it's the facts that i present, not opinion... well, enough rambling for now.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

i dont think she's designed as a whore archetype, she's just a very sexual person. whore, even as archetype, is a strong word.

 

When taken in the context of the other two female male romance characters, Aerie (Maiden), and Jaheira (Mother)... you can see what I'm getting at (I hope). Viconia fits into the last of the trio - either Whore or Crone.

 

sorry if i sound harsh but i did look extensively into viconia's character, and it's the facts that i present, not opinion... well, enough rambling for now.

 

You raise some very good points, and even made me step back and question my motivations. (Though I think you still missed my point about aggression (or dominance)/submission, but that's probably because I didn't word it too well.)

 

The thing that you said that really set me back on my heels was talking about Juhani. The fact is, yes I have got upset when reading a story that depicted Juhani as not only straight, but taking up with Canderous (Canderous!!). The difference is, Juhani is the very very first lesbian character I have ever encountered in any game I have ever played (and trust me, I've played a great many games in my life). To have someone "take that away" from me was shocking to say the least - especially since they didn't even place a disclaimer in their story summary. I would not have read the story had they mentioned the Juhani/Canderous relationship. The thing with Juhani is, people are just so used to seeing heterosexuality around them, and when presented with someone who is gay (without literally declaring their sexuality at any point) tend to ignore what they see, or don't see it, or don't believe it. There were a few threads started with people asking "Why is Juhani hitting on my female PC? Is this a bug or what?!" (When I wrote to the author of that story, by the way, she had no idea that Juhani was a lesbian... Like many people, she'd totally missed the clues.)

 

The difference, if you could call it that, is that Viconia is one of many female heretosexual romances. I am making it very clear what I'm doing, and people are free to avoid this mod if they want. You can think of this mod as a piece of slash fiction, with the relationship marked clearly (F/F, Viconia/female PC) in the summary. I agree that Viconia, as portrayed in the game, is straight. I am not sure I'd go so far as to say homophobic as well (I think that whole exchange is part of a plot-hole caused by dev ignorance of the Realms). In my opinion, it only takes the slightest shift in her personality to make her bisexual. Also, I'm not making this easy for a female. It is going to be difficult to get the right combination of friendship and interest... You could say that Viconia in this mod is a heterosexual leaning bisexual.

 

Lastly, I apologise for insulting you. It really was uncalled for.

[Guest Guest]

Well it's entirely possible that Viconia is homophobic (and quite likely, seeing as loads of people mention her chat with Valygar). I just wondered what Ed Greenwood has stated on this part, because, obviously not everyone is that tolerant in the Realms, and Drizzt is a prime example of someone who doesn't agree with the normal 'rules.' Drow don't really care about incest do they, yet Drizzt was all like "WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?!" when Vierna (his sister) tried to come on to him. I dunno whether Drizzt has ever been attracted to another man though. It'd be a bit sucky if Ed Greenwood said that everyone doesn't care about same-sex relationships... I mean, it's meant to be a role-playing game so they shouldn't tie you down like that, right, it kinda spits in the face of the whole purpose of role-playing, don't you agree?

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

Well it's entirely possible that Viconia is homophobic (and quite likely, seeing as loads of people mention her chat with Valygar). I just wondered what Ed Greenwood has stated on this part, because, obviously not everyone is that tolerant in the Realms, and Drizzt is a prime example of someone who doesn't agree with the normal 'rules.' Drow don't really care about incest do they, yet Drizzt was all like "WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?!" when Vierna (his sister) tried to come on to him. I dunno whether Drizzt has ever been attracted to another man though. It'd be a bit sucky if Ed Greenwood said that everyone doesn't care about same-sex relationships... I mean, it's meant to be a role-playing game so they shouldn't tie you down like that, right, it kinda spits in the face of the whole purpose of role-playing, don't you agree?

 

 

What actually goes on in an individual DMs game is completely up to the DM... But Ed Greenwood has made it fairly clear that people in the Realms are less biased against homosexuality, and tend to accept it as normal (which doesn't mean every single person accepts it). You have to keep in mind that a lot of the prejudice against homosexuality in the Real World comes from religious sources here... It's easy enough to forget that. But the Realms doesn't have to deal with Real World religions, and none of the deities of the Realms specifically condemn homosexuality.

 

You can come back and say (and I have a feeling you would) "but homosexuality isn't natural!!" The fact of the matter is, yes it is. It's completely natural. Many animal species including primates, exhibit homosexual behaviour, and some species even form true pair-bonds between same gendered pairs. Bisexuality in nature is a lot more common than most people would probably think.

 

There probably are some people in the Realms who are vehemently and possibly violently opposed to homosexuality, but they'd be fairly rare. Because there aren't the same kind of social pressures in the Realms, anyone else who isn't homosexual or bisexual would probably be able to laugh and say "I'm not interested in <insert own gender here>," if someone of the homosexual persuasion made a play for them... Why feel threatened? Homosexuals aren't out to rape people or convert them, we love just like straight people do - and we can handle rejection too. Besides, just accepting homosexuality doesn't automatically mean one is homosexual.

[Guest Guest]

What actually goes on in an individual DMs game is completely up to the DM... But Ed Greenwood has made it fairly clear that people in the Realms are less biased against homosexuality, and tend to accept it as normal (which doesn't mean every single person accepts it). You have to keep in mind that a lot of the prejudice against homosexuality in the Real Worldâ„¢ comes from religious sources here... It's easy enough to forget that. But the Realms doesn't have to deal with Real Worldâ„¢ religions, and none of the deities of the Realms specifically condemn homosexuality.

I agree about the Real World Religion thing, but I think that the Bible is quite contradictory anyway, but this isn't a religious debate. I mean, there are a lot of countries in The Realms, and I dunno, I find it hard to believe that everywhere has the same thoughts on homosexuality etc, whereas there is still racial prejudice etc there. It'd have been better had Ed Greenwood expanded upon such a thing rather than just saying "People are generally more tolerant in The Realms" but I suppose this isn't really much to do with the topic either.

 

You can come back and say (and I have a feeling you would) "but homosexuality isn't natural!!" The fact of the matter is, yes it is. It's completely natural. Many animal species including primates, exhibit homosexual behaviour, and some species even form true pair-bonds between same gendered pairs. Bisexuality in nature is a lot more common than most people would probably think.

Don't worry, I'm a nice guy, I know homosexuality is a natural thing to a lot of people, and I wouldn't judge anyone based on that, or the colour of their skin or something like that.

 

There probably are some people in the Realms who are vehemently and possibly violently opposed to homosexuality, but they'd be fairly rare. Because there aren't the same kind of social pressures in the Realms, anyone else who isn't homosexual or bisexual would probably be able to laugh and say "I'm not interested in <insert own gender here>," if someone of the homosexual persuasion made a play for them...

Yeah well, I was just pointing out that maybe Viconia is one of those rare people. I mean, the way she seems to not like any women and people have pointed to homophobic dialogues, it'd seem like she's one of those people to me. I mean, no-one else in the game seems like that, I'm sure they're like the natural tolerant (and maybe bisexual) people of The Realms. I dunno, there's a dialogue with Nalia where a woman can ask her for a marriage of convenience and she has a pretty vague response about whether she'd be up to it or not. Mind you I just looked at it and she said something like "even if you were the appropriate sex" so maybe she's not that open minded.

Aha, a point I wanted to make was when Edwin gets turned into a woman, he gets all these men jokingly coming on to him. Now, me, I wouldn't come on to a woman who was just a man a few minutes ago (if I was straight, and especially since he starts to think like women do a bit, like with Salvanas) so it seems like they could be a bit gay, because they are, in a way, coming on to a man, y'see?

It's like that programme that was on ages ago... "There's Something About Mirriam" where this really good looking woman.. wasn't really a woman, she was born as a man, but long story short. She had to pick the guy she most liked after a period of weeks and then tell him the truth that she was born as a man. The man she picked couldn't deal with the fact that she used to be a man but there were a few in the group of men she didn't pick that said they wouldn't mind it because they were bisexual men.

 

Why feel threatened? Homosexuals aren't out to rape people or convert them, we love just like straight people do - and we can handle rejection too. Besides, just accepting homosexuality doesn't automatically mean one is homosexual.

That's right, but there's people like that. I'm okay with homosexuals... I may feel a bit uncomfortable around two men or two women kissing each other, but that's something I can't really shake. Overall I'm not against them doing that... but that's not the point really.

 

I suppose the fact that we don't see many bisexual people in Baldur's Gate is because, outside of the party, I don't think you see that many couples do you? Except nobles.. I dunno, there may be one, where this woman was jealous of the fact this other woman was spending so much time with a man she didn't like. Maybe that's a gay woman. I'd assume that in The Realms, straight people are still the majority, just they don't mind about bisexual relationships and all. Well I'm rambling, I'll let you post a reply

[Guest Guest]

Gah, what is up with the quote brackets??

[NiGHTMARE]

You missed out a ] on the second end quote.

[Guest Guest]

Oh man, that sucks, it messes up all my quotes because of one tiny error?

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

I agree about the Real World Religion thing, but I think that the Bible is quite contradictory anyway, but this isn't a religious debate. I mean, there are a lot of countries in The Realms, and I dunno, I find it hard to believe that everywhere has the same thoughts on homosexuality etc, whereas there is still racial prejudice etc there. It'd have been better had Ed Greenwood expanded upon such a thing rather than just saying "People are generally more tolerant in The Realms" but I suppose this isn't really much to do with the topic either.

 

I don't know about you, but I Role Play as a form of escapism. Personally I'd love to escape to a world where my homosexuality was not an issue. It's hard to be homosexual in a heretosexist world, where I can watch my government going out of their way to stop me from having the same rights and privelages as heterosexual couples (eg.: marriage). If you or your DM wants heterosexism in their world (aka, homophobia and sexual prejudice), fine, include it. I'm not going to stop you.

 

Don't worry, I'm a nice guy, I know homosexuality is a natural thing to a lot of people, and I wouldn't judge anyone based on that, or the colour of their skin or something like that.

 

And yet you'd still like to see heterosexism in a fantasy world?

 

Yeah well, I was just pointing out that maybe Viconia is one of those rare people.

 

This module is "what if" and is not supposed to make people think the standard Viconia as presented in vanilla BG2 is lesbian/bi.

 

People have said they don't like this mod. They've even tried to plead with me not to make it. All I can say is tough. Don't like the mod? Don't download it. It won't hurt you by existing.

 

I dunno, there's a dialogue with Nalia where a woman can ask her for a marriage of convenience and she has a pretty vague response about whether she'd be up to it or not. Mind you I just looked at it and she said something like "even if you were the appropriate sex" so maybe she's not that open minded.

 

There are plenty of instances in BG2 when I know the writers basically didn't do their research about the Realms, or didn't know something. After all, homosexuality has only actually seen indirect mentions in print in this edition (3rd Ed) of Dungeons and Dragons - and never to the same degree as Ed's comments on the Realms-L list. Here's something else you probably didn't know - anything Ed says about the Realms is concidered canon unless it's later contradicted by something in print (and the BG games don't count, by the way, since they aren't concidered canon anyway)... This was part of his original agreement with TSR when he sold The Forgotten Realms to them. I only got that answer out of Ed because I practically asked him directly. The people at Bioware wouldn't have known unless they asked, and so they took the easy path - just assumed Real World social mores applied - which was, IMHO, wrong of them. This isn't to mention the Family Friendly policies of TSR, WotC and Hasbro (WotC having the most lax of the three, as can be seen by the indirect mentions of homosexuality I talked about above.)

 

To address Nalia specifically... There's one thing a female consort can't give Nalia (without magical intervention), do you know what that is? Of course she'd be worried about reproducing. However, since Nalia is a wizard, she'd be more than capable of taking care of that little.. ahem... issue (no pun intended) herself. But we know how well Bioware knows magic - since Aerie can't even use Regeneration to restore her wings (and the spell can do that, it restores lost limbs - like wings).

 

Aha, a point I wanted to make was when Edwin gets turned into a woman, he gets all these men jokingly coming on to him. Now, me, I wouldn't come on to a woman who was just a man a few minutes ago (if I was straight, and especially since he starts to think like women do a bit, like with Salvanas) so it seems like they could be a bit gay, because they are, in a way, coming on to a man, y'see?

It's like that programme that was on ages ago... "There's Something About Mirriam" where this really good looking woman.. wasn't really a woman, she was born as a man, but long story short. She had to pick the guy she most liked after a period of weeks and then tell him the truth that she was born as a man. The man she picked couldn't deal with the fact that she used to be a man but there were a few in the group of men she didn't pick that said they wouldn't mind it because they were bisexual men.

 

Edwin/Edwina, ah now there's something I've never experienced in BG2 yet... Probably because the only evil NPC I like enough to have in my party is Viconia (who is more True Neutral than Neutral Evil, and is a lousy priestess - I don't know why Shar continues to grant her spells at times!). First off, Edwin/Edwina demonstrates how a powerful wizard like Nalia (is at the end of ToB) could easily solve her issue issue. (Polymorph self, polymorph other, limited wish, wish... the list goes on...)

 

Once again, part of the Edwin/Edwina problem stems from trying to apply Real World morals to a fantasy world. But yes I see what you mean about the men flirting with Edwina when they know full well that Edwina is really Edwin. It could just be cruel play to humiliate Edwin more than he feels he already is (sexist git (Edwin, not you! )).

 

You know, they actually brought Mirriam out to Australia and stuck her in the Australian Big Brother house. I'm not really sure how that went, as I don't really follow Big Brother... But I still think that show, There's Something About Mirriam was a cruel joke. It serves no one, it doesn't further the cause of transexuals one iota. It just reinforces old prejudices. I'd be shocked that it was ever made if I wasn't so jaded about humanity. (Money makes the world go round.)

 

That's right, but there's people like that. I'm okay with homosexuals... I may feel a bit uncomfortable around two men or two women kissing each other, but that's something I can't really shake. Overall I'm not against them doing that... but that's not the point really.

 

Have you ever stopped to think that some of us might be a little uncomfortable around a man and a woman kissing? (Personally, I'm not.)

 

The thing is, this is a heterosexual world. From birth we are all bombarded with heterosexism. So when it gets to the point where you can think for yourself, you've got all this subconscious and subliminal baggage to get through. This is why teenaged homosexuals have such a high suicide rate - they have to overcome all this stuff, just to accept who they are. I'm kind of glad I was a little older when I realised I was a lesbian. I'd have hated to have realised it while still at High School (a catholic girls school of all places (I discovered I was attracted to girls in the last half of year 12 (when I was 17), but I managed to keep it to myself - I didn't really come to grips with it fully until I was in my mid 20s)).

 

I suppose the fact that we don't see many bisexual people in Baldur's Gate is because, outside of the party, I don't think you see that many couples do you? Except nobles.. I dunno, there may be one, where this woman was jealous of the fact this other woman was spending so much time with a man she didn't like. Maybe that's a gay woman. I'd assume that in The Realms, straight people are still the majority, just they don't mind about bisexual relationships and all. Well I'm rambling, I'll let you post a reply

 

The thing is, they aren't allowed to portray homosexuals in the game. If we do see such things, it's usually via subtext. I was really shocked with NWN:HotU, for example. Here's a game they were instructed to pull the festhall and courtesans from and yet a blatant example of polygamy was allowed through. I don't have a problem with polygamy (or polyandry or polyamory) at all... but really! It seems to fall into non-standard sexuality (I'm not sure why I'm so surprised, to be honest... titilation value of two gals wanting to be with one guy, even if they don't want to be with each other). (A festhall, by the by, is more than just a brothel. It also serves as a tavern and performance venue for bards and the like.)

 

Oh I think I rambled a bit myself... About the quote brackets? You forgot to close one, which meant they all got mucked up.

[Lord Ernie]

Butting my way into the debate again, tell me if I have to shut my face .

 

The thing is, they aren't allowed to portray homosexuals in the game. If we do see such things, it's usually via subtext. I was really shocked with NWN:HotU, for example. Here's a game they were instructed to pull the festhall and courtesans from and yet a blatant example of polygamy was allowed through. I don't have a problem with polygamy (or polyandry or polyamory) at all... but really! It seems to fall into non-standard sexuality (I'm not sure why I'm so surprised, to be honest... titilation value of two gals wanting to be with one guy, even if they don't want to be with each other). (A festhall, by the by, is more than just a brothel. It also serves as a tavern and performance venue for bards and the like.)

 

I'm not sure it was Bioware's intention to allow or disallow you to have the two romances at once, and frankly I'm quite sure that from a roleplaying perspective, neither of the two women would allow it. There's this one romance dialogue with Nathyrra in the last chapter, where Aribeth interrupts and complains she doesn't want to listen to you two flirt. Also, the epilogues simply don't match, so there's nothing in the game that mentions anything about polygamy (with which, BTW, I personally do have a problem). It believe this little thing is what could be called a bug (I'm not sure). As to why they don't put in homosexual romances, I think for several reasons: publishers don't tend do like 'em, however much a developer like Bio'd like (or not) to put them in (remember the kind of dodgy reaction of Peter Thomas as to Juhani being a lesbian); there are still several (IMHO shortsighted) people out there that would disagree and cry blue murder if they'd be put it in; and lastly, homosexuals are still a minority, and though there's nothing wrong with that, I think the classical romances lie a bit better in the market. Personally, I've got nothing against either of 'em, as long as they're well done and in character.

[BobTokyo]

Atari included three (poorly done) romance options in TOEE: Two heterosexual, one homosexual. Hasbourough asked for the removal of the brothel, but they left the Male-Male pirate romance in. I expect that there is some tollerance for same-sex romance options, at least at the corporate level.

[Guest Guest]

To address Nalia specifically... There's one thing a female consort can't give Nalia (without magical intervention), do you know what that is? Of course she'd be worried about reproducing.  However, since Nalia is a wizard, she'd be more than capable of taking care of that little.. ahem... issue (no pun intended) herself. But we know how well Bioware knows magic

 

Polymorph Self, Shapechange, Belt of Gender Change...just use it on her lover, and wham, there you go. After all, the female would only have to stay in male shape for a few minutes to get the goods.