General Viccy debate...

[Briannandoah]

Maybe a bit longer to learn to use those goods... (sorry, couldn't help myself).

[Lord Ernie]

Atari included three (poorly done) romance options in TOEE: Two heterosexual, one homosexual. Hasbourough asked for the removal of the brothel, but they left the Male-Male pirate romance in. I expect that there is some tollerance for same-sex romance options, at least at the corporate level.

 

What? Romance options in TOEE??? I played the game for a few hours before I got bored (I think it was a poor game at best), but the only 'romance' I took note of was some girl that could join you and that you'd have to marry (not as bad as the girl in Fallout 2, but close enough).

 

As for tolerance on the corporate level: perhaps Atari wouldn't complain about a male-male romance (although that'd be new as well), I was referring to Lucasarts, who I think wouldn't be quite so tolerant.

[BobTokyo]

Atari included three (poorly done) romance options in TOEE: Two heterosexual, one homosexual. Hasbourough asked for the removal of the brothel, but they left the Male-Male pirate romance in. I expect that there is some tollerance for same-sex romance options, at least at the corporate level.

 

What? Romance options in TOEE??? I played the game for a few hours before I got bored (I think it was a poor game at best), but the only 'romance' I took note of was some girl that could join you and that you'd have to mary (not as bad as the girl in Fallout 2, but close enough).

 

Oddly enough, yes.

 

It had its good points, but overall a disapointing game. The male-female heterosexual romances both involved women looking to get married as a way of escaping their dull home lives, and the male-male option involved a pirate's cabin-boy looking for a kind new master. There was also originally a lesbian encounter (but not a full romance) as part of the brothel sequence. AFAIK, there was no romance option for female characters.

 

As for tolerance on the corporate level: perphaps Atari wouldn't complain about a male-male romance (although that'd be new as well), I was referring to Lucasarts, who I think wouldn't be quite so tolerant.

 

Don't know one way or another about that.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

This is just a tad off topic...

 

Oddly enough, yes.

 

It had its good points, but overall a disapointing game. The male-female heterosexual romances both involved women looking to get married as a way of escaping their dull home lives, and the male-male option involved a pirate's cabin-boy looking for a kind new master. There was also originally a lesbian encounter (but not a full romance) as part of the brothel sequence. AFAIK, there was no romance option for female characters.

 

As for tolerance on the corporate level: perphaps Atari wouldn't complain about a male-male romance (although that'd be new as well), I was referring to Lucasarts, who I think wouldn't be quite so tolerant.

 

Don't know one way or another about that.

 

 

Bioware got away with the Juhani romance because LucasArts is more tollerant. At least that was my reading of the situation.

 

As for ToEE, well it's not Realms based so it can't go on my list of non-standard relationships in the Realms, but I suspect that the male-male romance thingy got through due to someone overlooking it (I never got that far in the game, I got bored to death of it pretty quickly - plus I never play male characters). This is odd, because in my experience people are usually much more tollerant of lesbianism than they are of male homosexuality.

 

And while we're still on the issue of things that got past watchdogs - I could swear there was one dialogue where.....

 

 

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR HOTU....

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Why spolier space? Well I'm directly addressing an issue in the game, rather than dancing around and not naming names.

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Where Aribeth and Nathyrra agreed to share the male PC. A polygamous relationship is one man, many wives - so this would fall under that, since Aribeth and Nathyrra were obviously not interested in each other. (I looked, but I can't find a darned thing in the conversations for that game *sigh*.)

[BobTokyo]

Heya,

 

This is just a tad off topic...

Fair enough.

 

Back on topic, this looks like an interesting mod. Good luck with it. Do you plan on this having been Viconia's first same sex relationship, or in your take on the character was she always same sex oriented?

 

Sorry if you've already covered this elsewhere.

 

Edit: Thinking about this, as this is the "debate" thread rather than a "question" thread, this is also off topic.

[Guest Arthas]

But the Realms doesn't have to deal with Real World religions, and none of the deities of the Realms specifically condemn homosexuality.

 

You can come back and say (and I have a feeling you would) "but homosexuality isn't natural!!" The fact of the matter is, yes it is. It's completely natural. Many animal species including primates, exhibit homosexual behaviour, and some species even form true pair-bonds between same gendered pairs. Bisexuality in nature is a lot more common than most people would probably think.

But if prejudice against homosexuals exists in the real world, then surely it will exist in any fantasy world? Is it not human nature to fear or hate that which we don't understand? Prejudice is as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. To pretend that people in the Forgotten Realms wouldn't have any problems with homosexuality would be naive to say the least. Unless some official source material I haven't read states that everyone in the realms regards homosexuality as perfectly natural, then it will meet some stiff opposition almost anywhere any homosexual goes.

 

And please, don't take any more swipes at organized religion. Just because billions of people in the world don't find homosexuality natural doesn't automatically mean they are all ignorant bigots with no redeeming qualities. You hold religion responsible for inciting prejudice against homosexuals and bisexuals when even people who aren't religious sometimes regard homosexuality, in all its forms, as unnatural in the extreme. Religion reflects a person's beliefs as much as it does dictate them. "The fact of the matter is" you can't boldly claim that homosexuality is natural any more than I can claim it isn't.

 

By the way, if you don't happen to believe God exists simply because there's no proof of his existence, I will laugh my head off.

 

Homosexuality isn't "common" in nature. Certain animals have displayed homosexual behavior, but it's far from "common". Also, homosexuality is practically non-existent in any species that goes into heat. I find it ironic when people use the "if it happens in nature, then it must be natural" argument, because the same argument can be applied to any number of human activities such as rape or murder or incest. Why be so selective? Animals can be born with two heads, and people can be born as Siamese twins, yet that doesn't make either thing normal. I would attempt to explain why the purpose of sex is reproduction but I fear no one is willing to listen.

 

As for Viconia, as long as you recognize that she's completely straight, then I'm less inclined to view this mod in a negative light. However, she is indeed straight. That doesn't mean she's "heterosexual, leaning bisexual", but heterosexual like many people in the real world. Viconia practically flaunts her heterosexuality, so I can't help but feel that writing her to be anything other than heterosexual would be totally out of character for her.

 

I would love to know how the official heterosexual Viconia would react to the mere thought of homosexuality. What leads anyone to believe she'd be quick to welcome it with open arms? I bet Jaheira would view it as "an affront to nature".

[Guest PsychoX]

But if prejudice against homosexuals exists in the real world, then surely it will exist in any fantasy world? Is it not human nature to fear or hate that which we don't understand? Prejudice is as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. To pretend that people in the Forgotten Realms wouldn't have any problems with homosexuality would be naive to say the least. Unless some official source material I haven't read states that everyone in the realms regards homosexuality as perfectly natural, then it will meet some stiff opposition almost anywhere any homosexual goes.

 

And please, don't take any more swipes at organized religion. Just because billions of people in the world don't find homosexuality natural doesn't automatically mean they are all ignorant bigots with no redeeming qualities. You hold religion responsible for inciting prejudice against homosexuals and bisexuals when even people who aren't religious sometimes regard homosexuality, in all its forms, as unnatural in the extreme. Religion reflects a person's beliefs as much as it does dictate them. "The fact of the matter is" you can't boldly claim that homosexuality is natural any more than I can claim it isn't.

 

By the way, if you don't happen to believe God exists simply because there's no proof of his existence, I will laugh my head off.

 

Homosexuality isn't "common" in nature. Certain animals have displayed homosexual behavior, but it's far from "common". Also, homosexuality is practically non-existent in any species that goes into heat. I find it ironic when people use the "if it happens in nature, then it must be natural" argument, because the same argument can be applied to any number of human activities such as rape or murder or incest. Why be so selective? Animals can be born with two heads, and people can be born as Siamese twins, yet that doesn't make either thing normal. I would attempt to explain why the purpose of sex is reproduction but I fear no one is willing to listen.

 

As for Viconia, as long as you recognize that she's completely straight, then I'm less inclined to view this mod in a negative light. However, she is indeed straight. That doesn't mean she's "heterosexual, leaning bisexual", but heterosexual like many people in the real world. Viconia practically flaunts her heterosexuality, so I can't help but feel that writing her to be anything other than heterosexual would be totally out of character for her.

 

I would love to know how the official heterosexual Viconia would react to the mere thought of homosexuality. What leads anyone to believe she'd be quick to welcome it with open arms? I bet Jaheira would view it as "an affront to nature".

Actually, homophobia pretty much developed with the judaic and christian religions. In North America, homosexuals were know as "Two Spirited" and were thought to be blessings of the spirits upon the tribes. Roman, Greek, and Minoan civilizations were accepting of homosexuality as natural expression of human sexuality... I could continue adding civilizations to that list...

 

If you tell me that the bible says that homosexuality is wrong then I could point out that if we follow the bible literarily then a father could give up a daughter to be raped to satisfy a male friend, actually he should do that as that is what a "good man" should do for his male guest and friend. Let's continue, if you have sex before marriage you are inpure which you should be shun from your family as you bring dishonor to the family. Let us not forget that is you ccomit adultery then you must be stoned to death... what would a minister say to that? "Oh well, we should not do that because it is inhumane and those were old customs of the people at that time." But when it comes to homosexuality, "nope, it is written on stone," god said that and so it must be followed... well, he said the other stuff, so you are telling me you can chose at your heart's desire what to follow... let me see what we call that: hypocracy.

 

About the nature part... the homosexuals behaviors don't go away with "heat" as most of these animals do no experience heat as peers.

 

So what it comes down to, you want to hate for the sake of hating and because you are in a majority you can pick on a minority and claim whatever you want about them. They said that us, blacks, were nothing better than animals "because the bible said so," and you enslaved us and tortured us in the name of your god, you hated us and oppressed us, and that was ok because that is what should be done with blacks... well, darn this sounds awfully familiar. Hey, when you get tired of hating homosexuals maybe you can a find a new and improve group to hate and hide the hatred under the disguise that god told you so.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

I am getting so tired of this debate.

 

But if prejudice against homosexuals exists in the real world, then surely it will exist in any fantasy world? Is it not human nature to fear or hate that which we don't understand? Prejudice is as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. To pretend that people in the Forgotten Realms wouldn't have any problems with homosexuality would be naive to say the least. Unless some official source material I haven't read states that everyone in the realms regards homosexuality as perfectly natural, then it will meet some stiff opposition almost anywhere any homosexual goes.

 

I never said it doesn't exist. I just said it was a lot rarer. Why is that so hard to accept?

 

Ed Greenwood on Homosexuality in the Realms

 

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes,

the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male,

inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter

of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted

from the printed version because of TSR's standards

(which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on

my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to

everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely

taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely

reporting what the natives are, and do..."

 

If you won't take it from me, then I can direct you to a place where you can ask him for yourself... Here on the Candlekeep Forums you can Ask Ed Greenwood questions. (I have a feeling you won't though.)

 

And please, don't take any more swipes at organized religion. Just because billions of people in the world don't find homosexuality natural doesn't automatically mean they are all ignorant bigots with no redeeming qualities. You hold religion responsible for inciting prejudice against homosexuals and bisexuals when even people who aren't religious sometimes regard homosexuality, in all its forms, as unnatural in the extreme. Religion reflects a person's beliefs as much as it does dictate them. "The fact of the matter is" you can't boldly claim that homosexuality is natural any more than I can claim it isn't.

 

There are plenty of people within organised religions that are quite accepting of homosexuality, Christians included.

 

By the way, if you don't happen to believe God exists simply because there's no proof of his existence, I will laugh my head off.

 

I believe God exists. I just don't believe he's my God. I believe in many gods. I even venerate one or two myself. I have an "each to his/her own" approach to spirituality. (And I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.)

 

Homosexuality isn't "common" in nature. Certain animals have displayed homosexual behavior, but it's far from "common". Also, homosexuality is practically non-existent in any species that goes into heat. I find it ironic when people use the "if it happens in nature, then it must be natural" argument, because the same argument can be applied to any number of human activities such as rape or murder or incest. Why be so selective? Animals can be born with two heads, and people can be born as Siamese twins, yet that doesn't make either thing normal. I would attempt to explain why the purpose of sex is reproduction but I fear no one is willing to listen.

 

Just because it isn't common doesn't mean it's not natural. Natural is anything that occurs in nature. Animals, further, do not rape, nor do they murder. Both of those crimes requires a higher level of sapience (ie: a sense of wrong and right). Incest occurs in nature in order to strengthen useful genes - done to extreme the whole race dies out, so it does balance itself. It's part of the natural order. In the case of siamese twins - nature quickly takes care of that. Left to their own devices, without human interference, both the two headed calf and the siamese twin human babies would die.

 

Sex is part of reproduction to be sure. But it's also an expression of intimacy, and a pleasurable one at that. This is why humans engage in sex when they don't mean to reproduce. So if you think homosexuals are bad and evil because they can't reproduce when they have sex, then you must think any human, no matter what their sexuality, is bad and evil when they have sex for pleasure, with no intention of reproducing. Would I be right? Because then we could also extrapolate that an infertile human is inherantly bad and evil because they can't reproduce, and they must be doubly so when they have sex for pleasure. But I will say this to you, homosexuals who don't insert tab a into slot b to make babies, don't pass their genes on. Nature balances it out. Heterosexuals and bisexuals engaging in heterosexual activities are the only ones to ensure the continuation of our species... and since homosexuals are such a small percentage - what is so terribly wrong with just letting them love who they wish to love without recrimination? It's not like we're having a population crisis - it's the reverse... there are too many humans in the world.

 

 

As for Viconia, as long as you recognize that she's completely straight, then I'm less inclined to view this mod in a negative light. However, she is indeed straight. That doesn't mean she's "heterosexual, leaning bisexual", but heterosexual like many people in the real world. Viconia practically flaunts her heterosexuality, so I can't help but feel that writing her to be anything other than heterosexual would be totally out of character for her.

 

I never applied the "heterosexual leaning bisexual" term to the vanilla unmodded Viconia. I said that was the Viconia as she stands in this mod.

 

I would love to know how the official heterosexual Viconia would react to the mere thought of homosexuality. What leads anyone to believe she'd be quick to welcome it with open arms? I bet Jaheira would view it as "an affront to nature".

 

She woudn't care either way - since even if she was prejudiced against it (and vanilla Viconia seems to be ), she'd quickly find that people would laugh when she tried to use it as an insult. Jaheira wouldn't have a problem with it, since we have established that natural means anything that occurs in nature. So how can homosexuality be an affront to nature if it occurs in nature?

 

You know, you can accept and tollerate homosexuality without being homosexual yourself. Acceptance and tollerance are not signs that you're gay. You don't have to worry about it so much. We aren't, as I have said before, out to rape or "convert" anyone.

[Guest Arthas]

I am getting so tired of this debate.

Sorry, I just felt compelled to share my point of view.

 

For good or for ill, many high-profile characters in Baldur's Gate 2 have been changed for the worse (rather than for the better) in my opinion. When modders are finished with the game, I wonder if there will be any straight characters left.

 

On the other hand, at least you acknowledge the existence of heterosexuality.

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

I am getting so tired of this debate.

Sorry, I just felt compelled to share my point of view.

 

You can share your opinion, it's just better if you make new points instead of going over old ground.

 

For good or for ill, many high-profile characters in Baldur's Gate 2 have been changed for the worse (rather than for the better) in my opinion. When modders are finished with the game, I wonder if there will be any straight characters left.

 

I am not sure what you're talking about as far as making major BG2 NPCs bisexual or homosexual.

 

The major NPCs I know have or are being modded as bi/homosexual/lesbian:

 

1) Soluafein

2) Imoen (people's favorite target - but the fact of the matter is that Imoen is depicted as a lesbian in the "offiical" novels (*grits her teeth* gods I hate those novels) - so I hardly think that is an example of people "changing" her.)

3) Viconia

 

If there's another Bioware character who has been made bi/gay/lesbian, then I don't know of them - please enlighten me if I'm missed one. I think there's been calls for Quitch to make his/her Imoen bisexual. I know some people have also asked the same for various incarnations Nalia. I have no idea what Quitch is going to do, nor do I have any idea what jcompton is going to do with Nalia. I don't know of any other major NPC who is getting the "is gay/bi/les" treatment at the moment.

 

Unless you have Soluafein, Chloe, and Lord Mirabbo's Imoen Romance installed all at the same time (since my mod is still nowhere near finished), there still only ends up at the most 2 homosexual/bisexual characters in the entire game (not counting Charname)... How many NPCs, with or without speaking roles, are there in the entire BG2? I think having one or two NPCs of non-standard sexuality is fair.

 

Lastly, there's always the "if you don't like it, don't play it" argument. Mods are here to provide people with options. You might not like or agree with all the options available - but none of these mods really have any bearing on the Official Game. Just because I make Viconia bisexual, doesn't mean that Viconia is bisexual in the Official Game.

 

On the other hand, at least you acknowledge the existence of heterosexuality.

 

It's a little hard to ignore when it's thrown into my face day in day out. Seriously though, where would this world be without heterosexuality?

 

Love is love is love is love.

[NiGHTMARE]

We aren't, as I have said before, out to rape or "convert" anyone.

I've met a few (and have heard of many more) homosexual people who enjoy trying to "convert" heterosexuals, though I suspect gay guys are more likely to make the attempt than gay girls. I've even had them try to do it to me on a handful of occassions.

 

Of course there are also numerous heterosexuals who enjoy trying to "convert" homosexuals, so it's a crime certain people of both sexualities are guility of.

[BobTokyo]

We aren't, as I have said before, out to rape or "convert" anyone.

I've met a few (and have heard of many more) homosexual people who enjoy trying to "convert" heterosexuals, though I suspect gay guys are more likely to make the attempt than gay girls. I've even had them try to do it to me on a handful of occassions.

 

Of course there are also numerous heterosexuals who enjoy trying to "convert" homosexuals, so it's a crime certain people of both sexualities are guility of.

I've known a few quite predatory lesbians and gay men, and predatory straights as well. That's people for you.

[Guest Guest_Cybersquirt]

We aren't, as I have said before, out to rape or "convert" anyone.

I've met a few (and have heard of many more) homosexual people who enjoy trying to "convert" heterosexuals, though I suspect gay guys are more likely to make the attempt than gay girls. I've even had them try to do it to me on a handful of occassions.

 

Of course there are also numerous heterosexuals who enjoy trying to "convert" homosexuals, so it's a crime certain people of both sexualities are guility of.

Uh.. what?

 

I'm just not going to say anything, hoping this is either a joke or an old idea that will die a quick death.

 

No, don't answer that. Please.

[Mahault]

Well, I don’t think that anyone is “converted†who does not want to be.

 

Besides, I think that bisexual Viconia may even enjoy a certain degree of hostility regarding her choice of lifestyle. This would allow her to exploit the aggressor’s own insecurities that she would undoubtedly see as weakness. Of course, I am completely ignorant as to the level of intolerance (or lack thereof) your average Færunian would feel towards bi/homosexuality. I should think that her innate drowness would be the more pressing issue upfront. Even should a relationship (henchmen or other NPC) go beyond superficial with Viconia, you either come to love her or hate her, gay or not. She demands more than even grudging respect. At least this is my opinion. And should it come as a surprise that Viconia is one of my favourite BG characters?

[Zandilar]

Well, I don’t think that anyone is “converted†who does not want to be.

 

Heh. I would definitely have to agree with that. Gay Conversion Ministries aparently have a very low success rate, and it would be my guess that they cause more problems than they supposedly solve. The ones it "works" for are probably more likely to be bisexual anyway. (Yes, that's my opinion - but I believe there's actually research out there to support that idea, but I am not going to scour the 'net for it at the moment.) So why would a gay man or lesbian be any more successful "converting" a straight person (unless they were really bisexual to begin with)?

 

They call it homophobia because it's an irrational fear. (And those who supposedly aren't fearful but are still prejudiced, the term is heterosexist.)

 

Even should a relationship (henchmen or other NPC) go beyond superficial with Viconia, you either come to love her or hate her, gay or not.  She demands more than even grudging respect.  At least this is my opinion.  And should it come as a surprise that Viconia is one of my favourite BG characters?   

 

One of the arguments that my "oppponents" have brought up is that "slashing" a character is showing disrespect for the original Author and for the character itself.