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Why are the kits so similar?


SixOfSpades

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IIRC Xvim is a gauntlet, yeah. Cyric was, I think, also going to be a gauntlet when we did him.

I think if no type of symbol was clearly specified by the sourcebooks we just went for rings otherwise.

Huh. When I collected Mulahey's and Bassilus's Holy Symbols in BG1, I assumed they were Amulets, mainly because they didn't look like anything else. Just my 2 cents.

 

Ideally, (most of the) Holy Symbols should be able to create different versions of themselves, so the user can choose where he wants to wear/carry the sign of his devotion. But I think the next best thing is to have the Symbols reflect something about the kit's name or the god's portfolio, if at all possible, and if it isn't possible, then default to something other than just Rings, if only for the sake of diversity. If the Lorekeeper of Oghma gets a Helmet at Level 25 and the Nightcloak of Shar gets a Cloak, they are faced with different choices about what other items to wear. The Holy Symbols needn't all have the same enchantments, either: I mean, the +1 to STR can be quite in character for a Watcher of Helm, but I doubt a Firewalker of Kossuth would care.

 

Also: Who else finds it odd that the Holy Ring of Sune is offered in every Cleric Stronghold? This ring would make a dandy Holy Symbol of Sune, if it wasn't for the conflict between its BG1 and BG2 enchantments. (In my edited version of the game, it's dropped by Zhivago, because otherwise it's practically impossible to obtain.)

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I just counted up the spells available to Clerics, including all of those added by DR, and there's room for 5 brand-new spells at Level 1, 10 at Level 2, 0 at Level 3, 6 at Level 4, 8 at Level 5, 12 at Level 6, and 7 at 7--although factor in the HLA spells at Level 7 and there's actually 1 spell over the limit. . .

 

I counted up the number of slots used up by all divine classes and kits back in December, and my figures came up quite different to those: 10 at 1st level, 14 at 2nd, 9 at 3rd, 13 at 4th, 11 at 5th, 14 at 6th, and 11 at 7th (not counting HLAs). Perhaps you're using the spheres mentioned in the spell descriptions for unmodded BG2, as we've changed quite a few of them.

 

But those numbers are really for kitless Clerics, those who have spell restrictions would obviously know fewer spells. So there's plenty of room for new spells open only to specific kits. If you don't like the idea of new spells, just say so, don't say the engine can't handle it.

 

It's not some kind of excuse; not wanting to implement unique spells because it's a waste of spell slots is the genuine reason I don't think it's a good idea. Once we have "maxed out" certain kits with non-unique spells, then we can look at giving those kits which still remain somewhat lacking some unique spells. But the other way around would undoubtedly lead to problems.

 

BTW, in many (possibly even *most*) cases, kitted clerics have a wider spell selection than kitted clerics; as the most extreme example, the Battleguard of Tempus knows 22 3rd level spells. There certainly isn't a single spell level at which kitless clerics know more spells than all the kits.

 

 

True. But, again, that's no reason not to make kit-specific spells.

 

Actually, I'm afraid it's an excellent reason. If we add a bunch of spells to those spheres relevant to these three classes, that's also going to use up a whole lot of slots for the cleric kits. It's a much, much better idea to wait until we actually know how many cleric kits slots will still be available before we start adding unique spells.

 

Extrapolate that idea, and you'll be arguing that we shouldn't be modding at all. I hardly think that's why we're here.

 

Someone Wanting classes to remain clearly defined means they think modding is wrong? Sorry, what you say?

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Random idea, riffing off of 6oS's idea of a mutable holy symbol.

 

Rather than the deity granting it, I think there's a lot of RP to be had by having the player acquire precious items, comissioning an artisan/mage, and then having their temple bless or sanctify it. Not necessarily a quest per se, but just the willingness to lose a rogue stone or diamond or necklace to create it. With slight variations in the end product of course.

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If you require someone to bless the item, isn't this tending towards our original idea of having temples and/or missionaries for each deity (an idea which was scrapped because IIRC it was decided to be too complicated)

Heh, no. I still want to do this, it's just that it takes time, especially because we were also playing around with unique stronghold quests for each--particularly for the evil deities.

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IIRC Xvim is a gauntlet, yeah. Cyric was, I think, also going to be a gauntlet when we did him.

I think if no type of symbol was clearly specified by the sourcebooks we just went for rings otherwise.

Huh. When I collected Mulahey's and Bassilus's Holy Symbols in BG1, I assumed they were Amulets, mainly because they didn't look like anything else. Just my 2 cents.

 

 

That's what BG1 did, though in pnp the priest's holy symbol is meant to be some bracers. They're meant to be like shackles, emphasising the priest's devotion to Cyric only.

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I counted up the number of slots used up by all divine classes and kits back in December, and my figures came up quite different to those . . . . Perhaps you're using the spheres mentioned in the spell descriptions for unmodded BG2, as we've changed quite a few of them.

I wasn't using any spheres at all: I counted up the total of Cleric-only spells, plus the Cleric/Druid shared spells (both from unmodded BG2), then added the new spells brought in by Divine Remix. Thus, the maximum total number of spells of each level that could be available to a Cleric (barring the additional spells from being a Ranger->Cleric).

 

But I made those calculations under the assumption that pureclass Clerics would have Major access to all spell spheres, but would not get the Spiritual Weapons and Spell-Like Abilities granted to the kits. From your quote,

There certainly isn't a single spell level at which kitless clerics know more spells than all the kits,

however, it seems I am wrong. Could somebody inform me precisely what Divine Remix offers to straight Clerics? The DR documentation only says that they have reduced versatility in Spell Levels 4-7.

 

If we add a bunch of spells to those spheres relevant to these three classes, that's also going to use up a whole lot of slots for the cleric kits.  It's a much, much better idea to wait until we actually know how many cleric kits slots will still be available before we start adding unique spells.

You mean--the Sphere Access of certain kits is still up in the air? I thought it was cut & dried, for the existing kits at least. Even so, if some kit (say, the hypothetical Geomancer) gets a kit-specific spell (such as Sandstorm) that is not available to any other class or kit, and the Geomancer's sphere access is then expanded so that there isn't room for Sandstorm on that level any more, then all we need do is move Sandstorm to another level (and tweak its power accordingly), or make it a special ability a la Boon of Lathander. I fail to see any problem with this setup, let alone enough of one to set up a preemptive ban on new kit-specific spells.

 

Someone Wanting classes to remain clearly defined means they think modding is wrong? Sorry, what you say?

I mean saying that "Priests shouldn't be allowed to cast Wizard spells" is a lot like saying that "Priests shouldn't be allowed to use edged weapons" which is akin to "People shouldn't be allowed to change alignment mid-game," etc. Once you, as a modder, make the argument that people shouldn't change the game beyond the boundaries set by BioWare and the source material, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. Especially if you're a contributor to a mod that lets certain Clerics cast Mantle, Cloudkill, Sunfire, Protection from the Elements, Tenser's Transformation, etc., for great justice.

 

 

I think there's a lot of RP to be had by having the player acquire precious items, comissioning an artisan/mage, and then having their temple bless or sanctify it.

That could work. I had a similar idea regarding item upgrades: Sentinel Shield + Holy Symbol of Helm = Sentinel of Helm, Shield of the Falling Stars + Holy Symbol of Ilmater = Shield of the Crying Stars, etc.

 

. . . we were also playing around with unique stronghold quests for each--particularly for the evil deities.

Just in case you don't already have this, the PC is contacted by a shady individual who wants to found a Temple of Generic Evil God in Athkatla. PC is instructed to kill the head Priest of the Temple of Helm in the Bridge District (I think his name is Berinvar), and defend the place against reprisals led from the main Helmite temple. Now that the PC is High Priest(ess), (s)he must kill one prominent member of each of the churches that have voiced opposition to the new faith.

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Someone Wanting classes to remain clearly defined means they think modding is wrong? Sorry, what you say?

I mean saying that "Priests shouldn't be allowed to cast Wizard spells" is a lot like saying that "Priests shouldn't be allowed to use edged weapons" which is akin to "People shouldn't be allowed to change alignment mid-game," etc. Once you, as a modder, make the argument that people shouldn't change the game beyond the boundaries set by BioWare and the source material, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. Especially if you're a contributor to a mod that lets certain Clerics cast Mantle, Cloudkill, Sunfire, Protection from the Elements, Tenser's Transformation, etc., for great justice.

 

 

But balance should be be maintained if the other classes are to remain viable choices. Most PnP specialty priests who can cast more than one or two wizard spells get some hefty sphere restrictions in return. Why bother being a mage if you can be armoured like a turtle and still cast the best offensive spells? Why bother being a fighter if your priest can use a two-handed sword, get weapon mastery and still fling out a heal spell?

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Just in case you don't already have this, the PC is contacted by a shady individual who wants to found a Temple of Generic Evil God in Athkatla. PC is instructed to kill the head Priest of the Temple of Helm in the Bridge District (I think his name is Berinvar), and defend the place against reprisals led from the main Helmite temple. Now that the PC is High Priest(ess), (s)he must kill one prominent member of each of the churches that have voiced opposition to the new faith.

 

Maybe a choice of temple could be implemented into this idea. Athkatla has a liberal smattering of temples, plus there's the temple of Waukeen in Trademeet, the abandoned temple in the Umar Hills, the sewer area the Unseeing Eye occupied (which would make an excellent tie-in to the already-existing cleric quests)...

 

Also, it shouldn't be reprisals from just the Helmites. You should receive hostile visits from the Lathanderites (Lathanderians?) as well (as their faiths seem to be allied in Athkatla), and possibly from the Talossians (would Talos mind a second evil god in the city/area?).

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Lathandrites and Talassans, IIRC. Talos might send reprisals against another evil deity's faith encroaching, unless it were one of his subordinate deities (the Gods of Fury--Auril, and I forget who else).

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