Irenicus's Dungeon - NPC choice

[Lemernis]

I wonder if the best option for a player who doesn't appreciate a false history being written for the former party, is to relocate Jaheira and Minsc outside of the dungeon. I.e., have no NPCs at all in the cages.

 

This entails rewriting Jaheira's and Minsc's 'join the party' dialogues accordingly. I'm not sure what other changes have to be made for their other dialgoues throughout the rest of the game. It's been about a year since the one and only time I used them in BG2 (and I didn't do Jaheira's Harper quest).

 

Imoen is far too pivotal to the entire plotline to do that for. The PC has to witness her getting captured by the Cowled Wizards along with Irenicus, and she has to be rescued from Spellhold. There's her dialogues about what Irenicus did to them in the dungeon, the character's dreams, etc. Too much to change.

 

Without Jaheira and Minsc to aid the PC and Imoen, the dungeon becomes substantially more difficult to escape. But here are some thoughts as to how to modify the dungeon accordingly:

 

* Add a secret passageway, beginning on level 1, that offers the option to bypass all encounters. As stated, it is optional. The PC and Imoen can also proceed as usual through the dunegon because the PC wants to get some clues as to what has happened to him.

 

* Modify Imoen's dialogue so that she advises that she's already scouted the immediate area and has discovered a secret door. I'm not sure what will have to be changed in her dialogues for the remainder of the dungeon to make this fit seemlessly, but it would have to be done wherever indicated.

 

* The party no longer has the aid of Jaheira and Minsc. So maybe add some new items that might aid in getting through the dungeon a little easier. Eg, potions of invisibility if you want to bypass some of the fights. Maybe add some particularly helpful spell scrolls such as Monster Summoning, etc. If you feel like getting fancy with it, place those potions and scrolls on a corpse located where the Shadow Thief is killed in the opening scene.

 

* Place the entrance to this new secret passage in the same area where the cages are. It goes directly to level 2's entrance area, and from there directly to the street. You can also go back the way you came from Level 2 to Level 1.

 

* The secret passage first takes you to level 2 where Yoshi is encountered. Yoshi's dialogue is modified to include the option of avoiding the mephit room and continuing with the party through the secret passage. However, at this point PC can also change his or her mind about leaving and decide to return to Level 1 in order to investigate. As such, the party will gain Yoshimo's help in completing Level 1. With a party of the PC, Imoen, and Yoshi, with the added boost of a few additional helpful potions and scrolls, the player should be able to complete the entire dungeon.

 

* From the level 2 entrance, continue through the secret passage and appear outside the dungeon in the usual spot, with the Colwed Wizards and Irenicus battling, etc. Game continues as usual from there. Except as mentioned, you'll find Jaheira and Minsc in other locations, with their dialogues modified.

 

So, in sum, you have less help but more options. You can either play out the entire dungeon experience as usual, but without the aid of Jaheira and Minsc. To balance that loss, some helpful new potions and scrolls have been salted into Level 1 to use or not, as you prefer. You can play the game normally to get to Yoshi. Or you can take the new secret passage to reach him. You can continue normally with Yoshi from Level 2. Or you can collect Yoshi and continue on the secret passage to the street. Or you can also return to Level 1 with Yoshi and do the entire dungeon.

 

***

 

I'm intrigued by the concept in BGT that your BG1 party continues throughout the saga. I can't find a working link at SHS to look over a readme for BGT. From what I gather, though, it seems that quite a bit more work will have to be done to make this compatible and non-buggy with all the excellent mods that exist.

[Lemernis]

Some more thoughts about the above:

 

* Perhaps make the secret door requre a key that does demand a little bit of work on Level 1. Not too much, maybe just a couple minor fights.

 

* Is it possible to convert a container to a 'door'? And for said door to 'area-transition' you directly to another location? If so, I would relocate the Golden Pantaloons from behind the painting to elsewhere in the dungeon, and make the party have to work to acquire them. Then convert the area behind the painting to a secret panel in the wall. When clicked upon the party transitions directly to the area where Yoshi is found.

 

* When Khalid's body is encountered, the PC has the option of recognizing him or not. When the PC identifies Khalid he wonders about the fate of Jaheira.

 

* Jaheira is relocated outside of the Harpers HQ. When encountred she will explain that she witnessed Khalid's torture and death, but managed to escape herself. (That should work, right?) Jaheira was been trying to organize a return to the dungeon to take her revenge. But given her connections with the Harpers in Athkatla she learned almost immediately that Irenicus and Imoen have been taken into custody by the Cowled Wizards.

 

* Whether the PC recognizes Khalid or not, in either case a personal item that Jaheira once gave to Khalid is found on his corpse: a locket containing Jaheira's picture. If the PC knew Jaheira and Khalid, he comments on who the picture in the locket is, and the past relationship with Khalid and Jaheira. If he does not recognize Khalid, Imoen comments that the locket is a possible clue to the mystery of their capture, and hopefully the player takes the hint and holds onto it.

 

* When the party encounters Jaheira they are struck by the likeness between Jaheira and the picture in the locket, and the conversation then follows one of three paths.

 

1) Where the PC and Imoen are acquainted with Jaheira and Khalid, they give her the locket. Jaheira explains that both she and Khalid were captured, and that while Khalid was killed, Jaheira managed to escape.

 

2) Khalid and Jaheira never spoke with the PC, they are total strangers: the PC will inquire about the extraordinary likeness between herself and the image on the locket. Jaheira will then tell her modified story since she and Khalid were dispatched by Gorion (or Elminster perhaps) to meet the PC at FAI. In this version Jaheira and Khalid waited for Gorion's ward at the Friendly Arm, but never met up with him there. Elminster eventually showed up and advised them he would take things from there. Jaheira and Khalid went on to attend other business.

 

The PC will however recognize the names as the couple Gorion had directed him to seek out. Jaheira will grudingly express faint praise for the PC's achievements in BG1. Jaheira will however scold the PC for not seeking them out at FAI.

 

3) The PC met with Jaheira and Khalid at FAI but the PC refused to allow them to join the party: Jaheira tells basically the same story as in (2) above. Jaheira scolds the PC for not following Gorion's directions and refusing Jaheira and Khalid's assistance.

[Gorilym]

Some very interesting ideas you have there, Lemernis. I'm not sure how much "help" a Minsc & Jaheira-less party would really require to complete Chateau Irenicus though - a carefully played solo mage can quite easily get through it alive. (unless we're talking Improved Ilyich ) As for BGT, the "party importing" feature sounds better than it is - NPCs brought into the dungeon with you from BG1 will be essentially silent if they're not already in the BG2 NPC lineup.

[Lemernis]

Yeah, I agree it's not all that hard to make it through Irenicus' dungeon. The added potions and scrolls would simply be at the player's disposal. And Yoshi could be recruited to head back down to Level 1 and help investigate it, or not. These features would just make it a little easier for those who do wish to get this or that loot item (Helm of Balduran, Chaos Sword, relocated pantaloons, etc.), the Equalizer pommel jewel, or the dryad's acorns. I don't think there's anything of particular value on Level 2.

 

Re: BGT: Ah okay, if BGT includes no banters for the BG1 NPCs in SoA I'd not be interested.

 

I am interested in playing the WeiDU version of Dark Side of the Sword Coast though, and I see that it's designed for BGT, hmm.

[Lemernis]

So do you think perhaps just relocate Jaheira and Minsc elsewhere and rewrite their dialogues accordingly then? I.e., no need for a secret passage?

 

The secret passage idea allows you to pick up Yoshi while avoiding all the fights in the dungeon.

 

I haven't tried Dungeon-Be-Gone, but I think I would the ideal solution to the game's presumption of a former party is:

 

1) No former party is assumed for the PC--no NPCs in cages.

2) The option to complete the dungeon is still there, if you wish.

3) The option to forgo the dungeon is there (via secret passage), if you like.

4) the PC was supposed to have met up with Khalid and Jaheira in BG1 game but many players do not use them--consequently, it's good to have a slightly modified storyline to reflect that.

 

Another issue is rewriting Minsc's 'join the party' dialogue. I honestly cannot recall if Minsc speaks much of Dynaheir after the dungeon... Or if he comments on her at all in the BG2 Banter Packs, Quest Pack, or Unfinished Business.

 

If Minsc does not speak much of Dynaheir, then I would consider rewriting him with a different explanation for Dynaheir's death than capture by Irenicus. In fact, I might even open the door to bringing her back in a mod by not killing her off. Maybe she simply goes her own way because she realizes Minsc's belt isn't through all the loops. And then it creates some difficult issues if she returns as a romanceable character.

 

Any event, I would not have both Jaheira and Minsc having managed to escape the dungeon, though. I'd write something else for Minsc.

 

Here again the conversation should have offer three branches:

 

1) The PC never spoke with Minsc before.

2) The PC met Minsc but declined his quest.

3) The PC adventured with Minsc and knows him well.

[WizWom]

* Add a secret passageway, beginning on level 1, that offers the option to bypass all encounters.

 

* The party no longer has the aid of Jaheira and Minsc. So maybe add some new items that might aid in getting through the dungeon a little easier.

 

* Place the entrance to this new secret passage in the same area where the cages are.

* The secret passage first takes you to level 2 where Yoshi is encountered.

 

OK, first, I don't think you really need to beef up the items in Irenicus' Lair. It's quite easy enough, I did it with a fifth level party easily, even killing the vampire. It is specifically designed to be a cakewalk.

 

Taking out Jaheira and Mincs is a godsend level idea. It would be cool to be able to get all the Jaheira Harper battles without her, but that's probably too much to hope for. Minsc is, of course, a big worthless lummox, as far as I'm concerned. If I didn't have such a complex about helping, I'd leave him in his cage, and get 25% more exp from Irenicus' Lair.

 

Second, the secret passage is easy enough - one can add a secret door - but there is already a portal right off the room. Just make the portal key a bit easier to get, and POW hello, Yoshimo! You could even put in a script that would save a global of which portal you last used, and then return you to the correct one from the second level. This would prevent short-circuiting the sewage golem and leaving the characters with no way to get back to that first section.

 

Third - it looks like you want to do a dungeon-be-gone that's not quite as cheesy. Which is pretty cool.

[Lemernis]

I was thinking maybe even just one potion of invisibility, a Monster Summoning II scroll, maybe a Sleep and a Horror scroll. But I suppose most any PC, Imoen, and Yoshi should get through the entire dungeon okay. If the PC is a non-combat character and doesn't want Yoshi in the party, then the extra potions and scrolls could prove really helpful though. If they're not needed don't use 'em. Sell them, or use them later, whichever. But I agree that they simply may not be necessary to begin with.

 

Good news that the secret passage is easy enough to do! As such there's a way to bypass the entire dungeon. Then if a PC feels like they'd rather get out of the dungeon and assemble a party before getting into any combat he or she can do so.

 

The most labor intensive part sounds like rewriting Imoen's, Jaheira's, and Minsc's conversations. And the PC's dialogue for when Khalid's body is discovered (unless it proves easier just to remove the body altogether and have Jaheira tell of his death).