Viconia knows Holy Smite

[NiGHTMARE]

Fixpack is different in that it's not a ruleset mod or tweak to match PnP more closely or significantly alter the BG2 ruleset, which is NOT the same as PnP ruleset and was never meant to be exactly like the PnP rules; it's a crpg adaptation of 2ed PnP rules.

 

If the Fixpack's aim were to bring the game closer to pnp rules, it would in fact make the exact opposite change in regards to Zone of Sweet Air: i.e. make it available to all druids.

 

Let fixes be fixes, and tweaks be tweaks.

 

Definitely. However, there seems to be some disagreement between what the words "fix", "tweak", and indeed "bug" actually mean. While you only seem to count things that don't work properly as bugs, others would also include inconsistencies, developer oversights, and so on under that term.

 

Next thing someone will suggest allowing thieves to be able to put 3 stars in dual wield like PnP for the fixpack-something I have installed with Avenger's apack rogue tweak and love-but it's not a fix, it's a tweak. The default BG2 ruleset does not allow theives to put 3 stars and this should not be 'fixed'.

 

This change isn't like pnp at all. In 2E, only warriors (fighters, paladins, and rangers) may be more than proficient in any weapon; only single-class fighters can be more than specialized in any weapon; only warriors, priests (clerics and druids), and rogues (bards and thieves) may be more than proficient in any fighting style; and no-one can be more than specialized in any fighting style.

 

Incidentally, you are aware that Baldurdash makes a tonne of proficiency-related changes, right? Just look at this, from the BD homepage:

 

Once Again Updated Weapon Proficiencies Fix resolves the following errors in the class weapon proficiencies table: Fighter/Druids could only put one proficiency into Two-Handed and Two-Weapon, Fighter/Mage/Clerics and Ranger/Clerics could only put one proficiency into Two-Handed but three into Clubs, Ranger/Clerics could only put two proficiencies into Two-Weapon, Paladins could put three proficiencies into Two-Weapon, Kensai and Cavaliers were not being allowed Darts proficiencies though it was confirmed that they may use all thrown vs. launched ranged weapons, Monks were not being allowed to choose Katana proficiency though they can use Katanas, Swashbucklers were not being allowed Katana specialization though they may specialize in any melee weapon they can use (which are the weapons thieves can use) and Swashbucklers were being allowed specialization in Short Bows, Crossbows and Slings though they may only specialize in melee weapons. (Note: Characters overproficient in any reduced proficiency will not lose the specialization point by installing this fix; it only affects future proficiency point assignment.)

[Silk]

I just checked and Viconia has Holy Smite and I don't even have the Fixpack installed.

[CamDawg]

The point is that she shouldn't have it.

[CamDawg]

Added for beta 4.

[Ithildur]

Fixpack is different in that it's not a ruleset mod or tweak to match PnP more closely or significantly alter the BG2 ruleset, which is NOT the same as PnP ruleset and was never meant to be exactly like the PnP rules; it's a crpg adaptation of 2ed PnP rules.

 

If the Fixpack's aim were to bring the game closer to pnp rules, it would in fact make the exact opposite change in regards to Zone of Sweet Air: i.e. make it available to all druids.

 

Let fixes be fixes, and tweaks be tweaks.

 

Definitely. However, there seems to be some disagreement between what the words "fix", "tweak", and indeed "bug" actually mean. While you only seem to count things that don't work properly as bugs, others would also include inconsistencies, developer oversights, and so on under that term.

 

Next thing someone will suggest allowing thieves to be able to put 3 stars in dual wield like PnP for the fixpack-something I have installed with Avenger's apack rogue tweak and love-but it's not a fix, it's a tweak. The default BG2 ruleset does not allow theives to put 3 stars and this should not be 'fixed'.

 

This change isn't like pnp at all. In 2E, only warriors (fighters, paladins, and rangers) may be more than proficient in any weapon; only single-class fighters can be more than specialized in any weapon; only warriors, priests (clerics and druids), and rogues (bards and thieves) may be more than proficient in any fighting style; and no-one can be more than specialized in any fighting style.

 

 

True, this may be a difference of view on what consitutes a fix and what constitutes tweaks. What I'm arguing for is that if there is room for ambiguity in the developer's intent, a fixpack should leave it as it is. Fix should be applied if there's an OBVIOUS error or inconsistency.

 

I do not recall that the descriptions for Holy smite and zone of sweet air exclude evil clerics and druids respectively. If that were the case I'd understand the reason for arguing these should be fixed. In a case like this I'd leave it as it is rather than err on the side of being heavy handed and changing too much, implementing a change that does not match in game descriptions. There are many many clear and obvious bugs that are still at large that to me would be higher priorities than taking away zone of sweet air from druids which as stated seems to contradict pnp anyway.

 

(I just checked, the exclusions are not in the spell descriptions)

 

Avenger's mod and G3's own song and silence iirc attempt to bring rogues closer to their PnP incarnations by tweaks such as allowing more than one pip to 2 weapon style, according to the readme descriptions of the mods. Avenger's mod readme further clarifies that although 2ed's phb iirc only gives rogues 1 pip, 2ed main rulebook dealing with rogues makes provisions for them being adept at the 2 weapon style. You can argue that avenger and Song n Silence are basing their tweaks on supplement rulebooks, but the point is that these changes are tweaks to the basic BG2 game, and not fixes.

[Ithildur]

Your point is noted, but incorrect. The default ruleset says that evil characters do not get Holy Smite. It also says that druids do not get Zone of Sweet Air. There is no ambiguity in the flags that indicate these restrictions. There's a big difference between changing of rulesets and the consistent application of the existing one, which is why Fixpack sticks strictly with the latter.

 

Unless you're arguing that spellbooks indicate Bio's rules for spells instead of the spell files themselves. Be careful with such an argument--not only do spellbooks vary wildly between creature files, it will put you in the very logically tenuous position of advocating Bioware meant for rangers to lack divine spellcasting, as both Minsc and Valygar lack any known and memorized spells in their creature files.

 

Which default ruleset are you refering to? BG2 vanilla or PnP? If you're refering to default BG2 I'm missing something because I don't recall having read anywhere in the manual or the spell descriptions in game that Holy Smite is not available to evil clerics; I will stand corrected if you can point out where it does say that.

 

Having said that I'm not arguing it's logical or altogether consistent that evil clerics should be able to cast this. If it were PnP definitely evil clerics should not be able to do this, but again, this is BG2 and the vanilla version apparently was designed to allow this. A mod like divine remix or tweakpack would allow this to be removed and work more like PnP. A 'fixpack' should not tamper with things like this unless, again, somehow evidence was found that this was clearly a mistake.

[CamDawg]

Which default ruleset are you refering to? BG2 vanilla or PnP?

The one that doesn't give Holy Smite to any evil clerics in BG2--start a new game and verify this for yourself. Holy Word doesn't mention its alignment restriction either and Viconia doesn't get it--shall we open that up as well? Or Unholy Word and Unholy Blight to good clerics?

[Ithildur]

Which default ruleset are you refering to? BG2 vanilla or PnP?

The one that doesn't give Holy Smite to any evil clerics in BG2--start a new game and verify this for yourself. Holy Word doesn't mention its alignment restriction either and Viconia doesn't get it--shall we open that up as well? Or Unholy Word and Unholy Blight to good clerics?

 

I've never played the game with a pc cleric so this is news to me; I didn't realize that. If this is so, I do stand corrected and it would appear that BG2 ruleset was meant to exclude evil priests from holy smite... and that it's either a very huge bug/inconsistency that viccy knows it, or it was intentional though inconsistent.

 

What about zone of sweet air? How was the determination made that druids are not supposed to know this spell? I can't recall whether Cernd knows this spell or not or if it's just Jaheira, who obviously was intended by BW to know Harper's Call which is not consistent with the rest of the rules for druid spells.

[Smoketest]

Something to remember here is that priests get their spells from their diety, not from spell books or spell scrolls. Thus they don't have a choice outside of switching dieties. For example, you wouldn't expect Lathander to provide his clerics with Unholy Blight or Animate Dead (the latter specifically considered by the PHB an evil act if performed). Thus Viconia's spells wouldn't change with her alignment because she still serves Shar.

[CamDawg]

I've never played the game with a pc cleric so this is news to me; I didn't realize that. If this is so, I do stand corrected and it would appear that BG2 ruleset was meant to exclude evil priests from holy smite...

Err, yes, I mentioned this a few times in this thread. I don't spuriously up-and-decide to strip spells from characters.

[NiGHTMARE]

There are many many clear and obvious bugs that are still at large that to me would be higher priorities than taking away zone of sweet air from druids which as stated seems to contradict pnp anyway.

 

Erm... you might want to actually be sure what a fix actually does before complaing about it . All druids in vanilla BG2 bar one are already unable to cast Zone of Sweet Air; the sole exception to this is Jaheira. I personally would call that a bug.

 

(I just checked, the exclusions are not in the spell descriptions)

 

Why must the exclusions be mentioned in the descriptions? The spell files themselves contain a field, "Priest Type", which dictates the exclusion, easily visible in editors such as Near Infinity and DLTCEP. In this instance, the Zone of Sweet Air .spl file (SPPR318) is clearly set to Cleric/Paladin-only in this field.

 

.spl files also include a "School Exclusion" field, and two of the flags which can be set in this field are "exclude good" and "exclude evil". Unholy Blight has the "exclude good" flag set, just as Holy Smite has the "exclude evil" flag set.

 

Avenger's mod readme further clarifies that although 2ed's phb iirc only gives rogues 1 pip, 2ed main rulebook dealing with rogues makes provisions for them being adept at the 2 weapon style.

 

Indeed. In fact, in the PHB there are only two ranks of weapon proficiency, and only the fighter may progress beyond the first; the five ranks system was introduced in a book called Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. However, as far as I can the Complete Thieves' Handbook doesn't in fact make any special allowances for two weapons; AFAIK this change wasn't introduced until 3rd Edition.

 

You can argue that avenger and Song n Silence are basing their tweaks on supplement rulebooks, but the point is that these changes are tweaks to the basic BG2 game, and not fixes.

 

i'm not saying such changes belong in the Fixpack; what I'm saying is these are not pnp-based changes (maybe inspired by pnp, but that is a different thing). The correct pnp-based change in this regard would be to allow all classes except mages and sorcerers to place two stars in all fighting styles. (And no, I am not advocating that for the Fixpack either.)