Dual/Multi-Class Clerics

[Guest grogerson]

I've been playing IWD, but this applies to BG, BG2 and (to a lesser extent) IWD2 as well.

 

A dual/multi-class mage or thief has access to the weapon proficiencies of both/all classes, unless...

 

A dual/multi-class cleric or druid is limited to the proficiencies of cleric or druid only. And, of course, a fighter dualing to either will loose any proficiencies not in those weapons when shifting over to the new class...

 

Has the idea of a tweak come up giving cleric and druid dual/multi-class characters the same proficiency access as the mage and thief?

 

Ranger/cleric, fighter/druid, fighter/cleric and fighter/cleric/mage should have access to all weapons.

 

Cleric/mage should have additional access to dagger and dart.

 

Cleric/thief should have additional access to dagger, dart, sword (short, long, broad and scimitar) and short bow.

 

I used NI to modify my IWD game (clasweap.2da and all [weapon].itm files), but I'm no modder and know nothing about WeiDU, so I can't make the tweak to submit here.

 

And, as I stated above, this is a tweak that can apply to BG, BG2 and IWD2 as well.

 

What to you think of the idea?

[CamDawg]

For me, at least, the clerical and druid restrictions have always been different because of their basis, and I like that they carry over to multi- and dual-classes. For example, thief restrictions are based on what the D&D folks think thieves should use, whereas cleric and druid restrictions are supposed to be based on their ethical/moral/spiritual beliefs. The former makes no sense in a multi-class so they're dropped, but the latter should continue to hold. After all, a cleric-fighter hasn't forsaken their deity or their beliefs. This is also one of the reasons why we went the opposite direction with druids in Divine Remix: fighter-druids had been able to use items that druids could not, and we felt this was inappropriate.

 

Of course, if you want to argue that the druid or cleric restrictions are simply silly to begin with, that's another discussion.

[Guest grogerson]

I know the argument that it's for game balance (in one form or another). But considering that a fighter/mage can still put proficiencies in any weapon they chose, as well as regain their fighter proficiencies when the excede the old class level in their new class, it seems more than a little conspicuous.

 

Clerics don't have the same damage-dealing spells that can make a fighter/mage or fighter/mage/thief far more deadly. A fighter/mage with three proficiency points in bow or crossbow is a formidable sniper as well. Put up to five in a halberd or spear and they can be a powerful second-line combatant. The same applied to the fighter/thief (and their skills instead of spells). This all adds up to putting the dual/multi-class cleric at a serious disadvantage.

 

The ethical foundations of the cleric don't change simply because of the weapons they use. Ethics are how they view the world and live their lives. They are also trained in the art of melee combat.

 

Thus the request for a tweak. Those who agree with you won't use it, those with me will, those who are undecided can try it or not as they wish, and make up their own minds. I'm just putting the idea on the table for discussion right now.

[CamDawg]

Clerics don't have the same damage-dealing spells that can make a fighter/mage or fighter/mage/thief far more deadly. A fighter/mage with three proficiency points in bow or crossbow is a formidable sniper as well. Put up to five in a halberd or spear and they can be a powerful second-line combatant. The same applied to the fighter/thief (and their skills instead of spells). This all adds up to putting the dual/multi-class cleric at a serious disadvantage.

The exact same dual-class rules apply to clerics (Anomen can get grandmastery in maces or slings after all) it's simply that they have fewer weapons from which to pick--a voluntary choice based upon their ethos. Multi-classes of all stripes are limited to two pips, so again, the sole advantage for fighter-thieves or fighter-mages over fighter-clerics is weapon selection.

 

The ethical foundations of the cleric don't change simply because of the weapons they use. Ethics are how they view the world and live their lives. They are also trained in the art of melee combat.

The 2e rules say their ethos prohibits edged weapons. As I said above, whether or not that's a sensible rule is a different discussion (and one on which we'd likely agree).

 

Thus the request for a tweak. Those who agree with you won't use it, those with me will, those who are undecided can try it or not as they wish, and make up their own minds. I'm just putting the idea on the table for discussion right now.

Ashes of Embers handles this pretty well for BG2 already, but it could be considered for other engines, sure.

[berelinde]

There's always Ashes of Embers. That mod will allow dual/multi clerics to use any weapon they are physically able to use and allows dual class clerics to retain pointy proficiencies.

 

AoE can be found at PPG.

 

Please note: if you are going to give it a try, and you are also using the G3 Fixpack, you are going to have to edit Anomen's .cre files with SK or similar. I've been trying to find a link to the post with the original fix instructions, but I can't find it.

 

Here's what I did: Opened SK Creature browser and found ANOMEN7.cre, then just deleted the crossbow from his quick weapon slot (he can buy a new crossbow). Repeated for ANOMEN6, ANOMEN8, ANOMEN9, and ANOMEN10. I didn't bother with ANOMEN12, because that's a TOB summons, and I usually play through, rather than summoning.

 

Edit: what CamDawg said.

[Guest grogerson]

Thanks for the info.

 

The real sticking point to me, I think now, is what you said, berelinde. I'd like to be able to keep, and use, the proficiencies gained as a fighter and let the other weapons go. Therein is the problem.

 

I can work with SCK/SK/DK/DK2 and NI, but I'm no modder and have no idea how to make the cleric or druid multi-class do this except change the clasweap.2da and all the affected weapons files.

 

I'll look into AoE, though that's not for BG or IWD.

[berelinde]

You're out of luck with IWD and IWD2, but you can use AoE with BG1 Tutu.

[NiGHTMARE]

Such a tweak isn't required for IWD2, as it uses the 3E rules. Meaning every class can use any weapon, and every class can take every weapon proficiency feat.

 

EDIT: Oh wait, apparently only fighters can take a weapon proficiency feat three times. So I guess there is scope for a tweak, after all.