Introducing Gavin

[berelinde]

Thanks for the opininions, but keep 'em coming.

 

I'm going to go with whatever the general consensus is, but if it's more of a bell curve, I'm going to pick the middle number.

 

I'm also counting 1 vote for 16 from Lemernis, and 1 vote for 14 from my boyfriend, who is familiar with the PnP Gavin and would like him to be as ineffective a fighter as possible so he can include him in a game and mock him. I don't mind. He's been playing practical jokes on the PnP Gavin for years, and I haven't bashed him for it yet!

 

Lemernis, Gavin's dexterity is not going to rise. He is clumsy when he is flustered.

I was playing to a stereotype, but I always imagined him as strong and hardy, but no genius. He is a good manager, but never had enough ambition to rise through the ranks of the clergy. If it makes more sense to knock his strength back, I will happily accomodate, but let's see how the poll looks in a few weeks.

[Gorilym]

The more I think about it, the more a STR of 17 for Gavin makes sense. The melee bonuses from it are only +1 to hit and damage, and with the base THAC0 and 1 APR of a cleric that's not going to unbalance anything. The main benefit from such a strength score would be him being able to wear full plate, a tower shield and at the same time do some packhorsing for the party. Of course it would also make him eligible for a dual-class, but as berelinde has pointed out to me he wouldn't make that great a fighter.

 

So, I voted for 17.

[Lemernis]

I'm inclined to agree with Gorilym. The 17 Str isn't unbalancing since as a pure class priest he's not getting the warrior class ATR and THACO bonuses.

 

It's just a matter of character concept, really--what kind of person is he, how berlinde envisions him. It didn't sound initially like he was a brawny type but turns out that's how she pictures him, so there it is.

 

The other comments I've made are more just ideas to explore, rather than strong recommendations.

[Grim Squeaker]

The 17 Str isn't unbalancing since as a pure class priest he's not getting the warrior class ATR and THACO bonuses.

 

But you've got to think about what 17 strength actually means. For some reason this 'just another generic guy' is one of the strongest people in the realm (by human standards). Okay he doesn't have the uber warrior training but he's still ridiculously strong for the character he's meant to be.

[Gorilym]

But you've got to think about what 17 strength actually means. For some reason this 'just another generic guy' is one of the strongest people in the realm (by human standards). Okay he doesn't have the uber warrior training but he's still ridiculously strong for the character he's meant to be.

That was my initial reasoning as well, but I think it's mainly a matter of perspective - Yoshimo has 17 strength as well, which I (come to think of it) actually find more implausible than Gavin doing so. Not to mention a nob like Anomen for some reason having 18/52. Or in BG1, Kivan's 18/12.

[berelinde]

Point taken. I cannot promise that I will ultimately agree with you, because I have not yet made up my mind, but I can promise that I will take this view into account.

 

There are a bunch of factors that gave me his initial stat.

 

I actually made a chart of all BioWare and mod NPCs and compared each and every stat against the statistical data (average, min, max) for each attribute relative for race, class, BioWare, and Mod. I decided that I wanted Gavin to be stronger than Garrick (14), not as strong as Kivan (18), less intelligent than Ajantis (12), more intelligent than Minsc (8), slower than just about everyone, and about average in terms of charisma (12). His stat total is 1-3 points below other Tutu mod NPCs. As for truly exceptional strength, BioWare played fast and loose with that. There are 3 party-joinables with strength greater than 18, which is probably a lot, considering the assumed rarity of such attributes. Within that window, I would be willing to drop his strength a point or two, but I am undecided.

 

It always annoyed me that the only input potential players could have about mod npcs was whether or not to download the mod. I would like to offer a better alternative. I already know that I will not be able to please everyone, but I would like to be able to say that my decisions were not arbitrary.

 

I have already stated the reasons why I wanted a higher strength score, but I am more than happy to entertain opposing views.

[Riviera]

I have to agree with the 'lower strength' crowd. 15 or 16 sounds about right to me.

 

This looks like a good mod, regardless. It's a nice concept, and it would be nice to have another potential cleric around.

 

Hoping it'll be BGT compatible someday, so I can give it a try!

 

offtopic > I think Anomen and Kivan have pretty solid reasons for high strength. Anomen was trained first as a fighter (it seems to have started at a young age too), and that definitely develops one's strength. He didn't quite have the typical noble's life either, considering his particular background with his father. Kivan, on the other hand, has led the life of a ranger for many, many years. Gotta be physically tough for that.

[Gorilym]

offtopic > I think Anomen and Kivan have pretty solid reasons for high strength. Anomen was trained first as a fighter (it seems to have started at a young age too), and that definitely develops one's strength. He didn't quite have the typical noble's life either, considering his particular background with his father. Kivan, on the other hand, has led the life of a ranger for many, many years. Gotta be physically tough for that.

 

To me there is a very clear difference between high strength and exceptional strength (in the literal sense).

 

Anomen possessing some kind of champion's strength, I don't buy it. If he did, he should have / would have stayed a fighter. Exceptional strength would be even more rare among elves than among humans, and the ranger's prime statistic is constitution, not strength - in a word, their hardiness. What little original Kivan material there is suggests that he was conceived primarily as an archer. (holding a bow in his portrait and everything ) As one of the strongest members of his community, (and 18/12 would certainly make him that) it would have made much more sense for him to be trained in a style of combat that took advantage of his strength. As I see it the reason behind Kivan and Anomen having exceptional strength, is the same reason that even naive Nalia starts with at least a couple hundred thousand XP in SoA - to make them more viable as NPCs. (Of course, the most silly of all the NPCs in this respect is Yoshimo - not only is he the pinnacle of human dexterity, at the same time he possesses the same strength as Keldorn. )

 

The point to all this rambling is, the stats of the original NPCs are not completely "rational". Please excuse the (relative) OT-ness.

[Riviera]

(Of course, the most silly of all the NPCs in this respect is Yoshimo - not only is he the pinnacle of human dexterity, at the same time he possesses the same strength as Keldorn. )

 

Naturally this is because he eats his Wheaties! - This message brought to you by The Cereal Board

 

 

But yeah, I get your point. I just feel compelled to find a 'somewhat logical' roleplaying reason for everything.

 

Regardless, as I said before, Gavin looks like a good character. I'll give him a try whatever his strength is .

 

'Give him a try'...hehe.

[berelinde]

Aw, thanks.

 

He's moving right along, but today is a working-around-the-house-day, and my kitten has been trying to help me type. I probably should not have named him Puck...

[EiriktheScald]

Your average guy would do well to carry 120 pounds of weight around for long distances. I'd put him at no more than 15 Strength.

[Lemernis]

What makes a character powerful as a warrior is multiple attacks per round and low THACO. The +1 hit adjustment and +1 damage bonuses from 17 Str isn't all that much--though the 170 lbs weight allowance is nice.

 

So it cuts both ways: On the one hand, it's really no big deal that he gets those relatively minor bonuses and can carry a lot. But on the other hand, precisely because the benefits of 17 Str for a cleric are relatively minor, one could also argue why not have him keep more in character with the 'ordinary guy' concept? (I.e., with Str around 14-15.)

 

What I would do is consider giving him neither extraordinary Str or Dex but instead giving him some really nifty special abilties for a cleric of Lathander.

 

I'm reminded of the last BG1 Tutu game I played where I finally got around to seriously trying to use Tiax after all theses years. I found his Summon Ghast special ability was extremely helpful early on (I was able to add him in Chapter 2 because I had installed Sword Coast Stratagems). It made all the difference in some battles.

 

Similarly, perhaps Gavin can offer something very unique and useful in the divine realm.

[berelinde]

OK, at this point, I'm wondering which is cheesier: to go ahead and give him the 17 strength and have people say "you've got to be kidding" or to drop it to 16, and bump it to 17 if he ever makes it to SoA. I don't know if I'm comfortable with the idea that he's weaker than Yoshimo.

[BigRob]

Part of the problem with BGII as a game (and indeed most D&D CRPGs) is that they're built around a bit of a powergamer mentality, so one has to balance the nicety of having your characters make sense with the reality of the fact that a some of the stuff you face is brutally nasty for a PnP game (like forcecasting, uniterruptable mages).

 

I voted for 16 STR for Gavin, because they does put him on the low side of other NPCs, even if it still makes him very stand-out from the general populace in terms of averages. I would consider any stat of 16 to still be exceptional, but for BGII, having more average scores in a major stat (and it is pretty major for clerics, who are the second best fighters) can be a real drain on the party, as it limits what armour can be worn, as well as how powerful the character becomes when buffed.

 

 

Bear in ind that for SoA he will have access to spells that buff his strength to high, fixed amounts, so the loss isn't quite so bad if you get a chance to cast those spells. Still, if you really wish to put him on par with Yoshimo, for I don't think that will be too much of a problem.

[berelinde]

True. And there are containers available fairly early in BG2. And magic armor is more readily available, and much lighter.

 

And I really have no business thinking that far ahead when I haven't finished this one yet.

 

So, I think what I'll do is think about it a bit more, listen to what everyone has to say, waffle a bit more, and eventually come up with something.