Thievery realism mod

[Gorilym]

There aren't any particularly seedy taverns or inns in Beregost, though the Jovial Juggler is the rowdiest per canon.

Purely a matter of definition IMHO. With the exception of Feldepost's, they all seem fairly seedy to me.

 

Fun to think about, but who would want to code all that?

Well, the name of this forum is General Mod Discussion, not Creation.

[Lemernis]

Believe me, I'm hands down the worst offender around here of "hey, I've got an idea! how 'bout such and such a mod!" I'm full of idears and have no coding skills whatever. I incorrigibly float stuff because some folks do find the subjects fun to think about. And you never know who might want to take up an idea and run with it. The odds of that are pretty slight, though. (Virtually nil.)

 

I'm spoiled by NWN where there's scripting routines shared by the community, and script generators, and so forth. And it is so much easier to realize quest ideas in a PW, where you have a toolset that can spit things out, and a crew of lives DM to do stuff on the fly. NPC Dialogue is very simple to write in NWN--any non-coder can do it. With the Infinity Engine it seems that even writing simple dialogue trees is a major project.

[Miloch]

It looks like SimDing0's Virtue mod might already have something similar to the first point I was talking about:

 

1) Whenever you steal (I confirmed that it's just the opening of a container, not the picking of it or taking items from it that has the potential to set off an "alarm" if someone sees you) you get some sort of variable augmented. If that counter gets too high, you have a good chance to lose reputation.

 

What Sim's mod apparently does is split reputation into 2 components - reputation (how people in game feel about the party) and virtue (how morally correct the party's actions are). Although the mod indicates it is ToB-only, it'd be interesting to see if something similar could be implemented for BG1/Tutu. Either you could use a variable of this nature to account for thieving, or just implement a separate, similar one (e.g. "suspicion") tied indirectly to reputation.

 

2) Add items to a store (a "shady" inn or house would do) early in the game:

--a) disguise - an item worn (probably in helmet slot) that lessens chance for someone "noticing" thievery actions (breakable, either by timer or after certain number of thievery acts)

--b) blackjack - rogue-only weapon (probably club proficiency), does no damage but much more effective to knock out someone than bare hands

--c) lockpicks, possibly different grades/qualities (lockpicking modifiers), also breakable (% for each use based on quality)

3) Modify potions (master thievery, perception) to remove, or at least account for the presence of lockpicks

 

These last 2 points might be somewhat simpler to implement, based on what little I'm learning about item editing/creation. Might require some new icons (that, at least, I can do) and the "disguise" might involve some additional coding linked to idea #1.

 

I still like the jail and thieves guild ideas but hey, first (and easiest) things first, right? Plus I think there's components of these ideas already resident in BG2, so perhaps they could be reverse-implemented eventually.

[Gorilym]

The problem with Virtue in this case is that it doesn't actually affect acts of thievery. (or at least it's never done so while I've used it) Or maybe it's just pickpocketing that has no effect on virtue, I forget.

[Smoketest]

Though it's not realistic, I always liked how when you ended up in jail in the original singleplayer Ultima games; there was always a way out, usually by secret door in the back wall. This allowed you to experience being locked up for being a perceived scoundrel, but at the same time it didn't end the game due to something like the IE's infamous "uh oh, Charname is out of the picture (but not necessarily dead), time to re-load" syndrome.

 

Of course, scripted incarceration, such as was done in the later portions of BG1, works well. What'd be fun would be to get thrown in jail for, say, a year. A script would then use DayNight() to advance time one year in a sort of cutscene. Then you'd be released. The trick (and work) would be in making things appear that the game world didn't stop while you were in prison, and so now you're one year behind. (Or perhaps you find yourself released early because the Five have slaughtered nearly everything on the Sword Coast and now they've just destroyed your prison. You'd be seriously behind the times and would have to run for your life until you could regroup to take them on. But that'd be like a TC or something, just because you got thrown into prison.)

[SimDing0]

The problem with Virtue in this case is that it doesn't actually affect acts of thievery. (or at least it's never done so while I've used it) Or maybe it's just pickpocketing that has no effect on virtue, I forget.

Frustratingly, the engine does not allow me to do this.

[Miloch]

Well since I've been acquiring a bit of item and store modding experience, I thought I'd take a stab at some of the more "doable" parts of my own idea, namely:

2) Add items to a store (yes, a shady inn or house would do) early in the game: disguise, blackjack, lockpick

3) Modify the potions of thievery and perception... to account for the lockpicks

In the roughest form...

Disguise = +10 to +30 stealth (depending on quality, breakable)

Lockpick = +10 to +30 open locks (depending on quality, breakable)

Blackjack = DMG0 THAC0+2, club proficiency (there *is* a blackjack slot but I see no real way of exploiting it as it doesn't appear on the char screen... besides, who would want to waste a proficiency in blackjack? )

 

So the next step is, where to put the items?

There aren't any particularly seedy taverns or inns in Beregost, though the Jovial Juggler is the rowdiest per canon.

Purely a matter of definition IMHO. With the exception of Feldepost's, they all seem fairly seedy to me.

I tend to agree with Gorilym... though perhaps we should stay out of modding Beregost until (if and when) the Tutu people fix the crash issues? I was thinking maybe the tavern in Nashkel where the bard is. Or perhaps a seedy individual at the Carnival (which includes, oh, just about *everyone* there ). Though there's nothing tough about making the items available in several places. Any other ideas?

1) Whenever you steal (I confirmed that it's just the opening of a container, not the picking of it or taking items from it) you get some sort of variable augmented. If that counter gets too high, you have a good chance to lose reputation.

This I might need help with, if it's even doable. However...

Instead of checking to see if the thief is invisible, the container's trap script (that summons guards) should check if it can see any neutral NPCs. If not, then the thief can steal what's in the container without anyone seeing, regardless of how well hidden the thief might be at that moment. Since opening a container automatically dispels invisibility/stealth, this makes more sense. (I've changed a few scripts to test this out and it works quite well.)

Mind passing along the code?

[Gorilym]

One of the merchants at the carnival is also present at the Elfsong in BG - he might be suitable (he is basically a tabula rasa in terms of personality, so you could perhaps "reinvent" him as a shady fence or similar). Or just make a new character that is accessible in multiple locations.

[Mebyon]

I never even tried "knocking someone out" do you just attack with no weapon equipped?

I love the idea of a blackjack that does no or minimal damage (1d2) but has a chance of knocking someone out.

It could increase in probability of success according to level, or else be upgradeable from a merchant (a-la cromwell in BG2) using various gems/scrolls (like the item-upgrades mod from weidu)

 

I'd love to see someone take that on - I'd do it myself but i've got no idea on how to start!

[Miloch]

I never even tried "knocking someone out" do you just attack with no weapon equipped?

Yes.

I love the idea of a blackjack that does no or minimal damage (1d2) but has a chance of knocking someone out.

I haven't played around too much with this weapon yet. In absence of some sort of "knockout" flag (I haven't found any such thing yet) on a weapon, I think I'll have to make it 0 damage, but a higher to-hit than with just your bare hands. Assuming that will work, and the knockout isn't hardcoded in the game to be fist-only...

It could increase in probability of success according to level, or else be upgradeable from a merchant (a-la cromwell in BG2) using various gems/scrolls (like the item-upgrades mod from weidu)

Those are nifty ideas. I was going to make it a "club" proficiency, so if you put points into that it'll be more effective. And it wouldn't be too tough to make it upgradeable... which would basically just up the THAC0, not the damage. But what kind of components would you enchant a blackjack with? Being as how it's basically a leather sack full of lead. Though a cheaper blackjack could just be sand-filled sock...

 

Edit: Actually, even if it is hardcoded, I can work around that by putting a sleep spell on the blackjack that could go up in effectiveness - 10% for a cheap blackjack, 40% for a good one, etc. (Why didn't I think of that earlier? *whaps forehead*)

[berelinde]

IRL, blackjacks are funny things. If they work right, they can knock someone out with minimal damage. If they work wrong, they can kill.

 

Did you know that the force necessary to render someone unconscious is sufficient to kill? I actually know someone whose father was killed by being hit over the head with a champagne bottle.

 

How about this: 1d2 damage, 25% unconscious, kills on a critical hit unless save vs death?

[Miloch]

kills on a critical hit unless save vs death?

That could be abused (*imagines someone sneaking up on a red dragon and dropping it with a lucky hit*). Though yeah, maybe a very rare chance to kill (a professional blackjack isn't a champagne bottle after all ) and it will probably do some minimal damage too.

 

I didn't know there were so many varieties of blackjack! (*starts madly coding BAMs*)

[Mebyon]

Just to keep batting this idea around:

How about using the same function as some of the charm spells? the one that makes it only work on humanoid creatures. I cosh is a sound whack at the base of the skull so you could do it to anything that follows the same anatomy so yes to a halfling or a dryad but not a giant (you'd never reach!). It would affect a drow and a hobgoblin, but a dragon would be immune (see giants)

 

As far as upgrading:

A leather sack full of sand would be less effective than one containing with a fat diamond

or what about putting some "magic" acorns in there? (sorry dryads)

You also could use the various materials available:

Red cloth (buried alive)

Winter Wolf Pelt (slavers)

Elephant hide or the "Flesh" (Bridge)

Also, the two hide pieces from the Amber mod could be used (if the authors are cool with it!)

Umm can't think of any more in game material, but a mod could put some in...

 

Is there an way to turn the unconscious victim into a “container†so you could sneak up to a person, cosh ‘em and strip naked! If you aren’t seen doing it you should be able to get away scott-free, but if anyone can see you your reputation should crash.

 

This sounds fun, wish I knew how to turn any of these ideas into reality…

(by reality I don’t mean I have a burning desire to mug anyone with a leather bag full of diamonds!)

 

{edit to remove slight spoiler, woops!}

[Miloch]

Great ideas. Also if you're wearing a helm, you should be pretty much immune to sapping (as with critical hits). There seem to be very few humanoids in the game who actually wear helms though, so the poor suckers are just asking to get coshed!

 

I'll have to mull around the possibility of looting the unconscious, from a coding perspective. It should theoretically be possible even for a non-thief to pick their pockets practically 100%, though the victim would have a chance of waking up too (possibly incremental with each item pinched).

 

Also will toy with using other materials to make the coshers... like a gibberling hide sap +1, aka 'sweet dreams'. Has a chance to also inflict disease (which hopefully won't be noticed until you're long gone).

 

As usual, the artwork will probably be the most time-consuming part of this. I've already got a few decent pictures I can work with... can always use more though. The blackjacks and lockpicks should be fairly easy... was having trouble coming up with "disguises" though.

[Miloch]

Behold, the blackjack:

First cut at description...

...and stats:

Lockpick:

Description (not too happy with the BAM here, might have to fuzz the shadow):

Nothing too fancy about the stats: