LE Alignment Changes

[CamDawg]

I doubt she would rise to such a rank being diametrically opposed to Bhaal along one of the alignment axes.

And again I bring up Anomen and Viconia. People change. Especially when something happens that's as life-shattering as the death of your deity. She was probably LE before, but now...?

I'm missing how Viconia, worshiper of Shar, and Anomen, worshiper of Helm, have relevant comparisons to the "greatest Deathstalker and High Matriarch" of Bhaal. She knew of Bhaal's plan to 'die'--and helped him prepare for it--so I'm unsure how it would be unexpected, much less life-shattering.

[Felinoid]

I'm missing how Viconia, worshiper of Shar, and Anomen, worshiper of Helm, have relevant comparisons to the "greatest Deathstalker and High Matriarch" of Bhaal.

They're not comparisons as clerics; they're examples of people changing (alignments, specifically). Melissan was the High Matriarch of Bhaal. The key word there is WAS. Anomen takes all of two seconds to change depending on a single event, and Viconia takes only a few months of work to renounce her old ways. Sarevok only takes a week or so to turn into a saint. But Bhaal's death was years (decades?) ago by the time of BG2's events. Melissan couldn't have changed in the intervening time?

 

She knew of Bhaal's plan to 'die'--and helped him prepare for it--so I'm unsure how it would be unexpected, much less life-shattering.

Ask anyone who's had a loved one die slowly of cancer, and they'll tell you that something doesn't have to be unexpected to be life-shattering. Not to mention that there is at the very least the moment of reveal that could have affected her. And all the time in between for her to have had various "revelations". But don't dismiss this with your little "adopted puppies" example; this is only the first stage of the argument, getting rid of the false (IMO) assumption that she has to be LE because she was the high priestess of Bhaal in another life. I can't very well argue her as another alignment (CE in this case) while you're determined that she's LE somehow by the rules, now can I? After all, rules trump judgements.

 

EDIT: Just as a matter of correcting misconceptions about 2e rules, there is no such general rule that priests have to be the same alignment as their deities (even kitted), or even close for that matter. Looking at my 2e Dragonlance source material, out of 21 gods (not counting the absent High Father, who will not grant powers), there are only 3 gods that require their priests to be of the same alignement, and I find it interesting to note that none of them are evil. (Kiri-Jolith as the "paladin's choice" and Chislev as the "druid's choice" were naturals, but Mishakal surprised me. You'd think a goddess of healing wouldn't really care so long as her priests used their healing powers for good.) Also of note are the 3 neutral gods who have zero requirements on alignment.

 

While this is simply an example and not the rule, I think it's a useful example to prove that there is no rule. Each setting and god has their own requirements, which is why I asked if there was an FR-specific rule about this.

 

And before it comes up, I'm not misinterpreting what the book says. There really isn't much room for misinterpretation when there are three alignment entries for each god, specifically: Alignment, Worshipper Alignment, & Priest Alignment. Especially when the Priest Alignment is apart from the other two in a small section describing the special requirements, duties, and powers (spell spheres, armor and weapon restrictions, undead-turning ability, etc.) of a Priest of X. IOW, if it were mathematically possible I'd be 110% sure about this.

[CamDawg]

Ask anyone who's had a loved one die slowly of cancer, and they'll tell you that something doesn't have to be unexpected to be life-shattering. Not to mention that there is at the very least the moment of reveal that could have affected her. And all the time in between for her to have had various "revelations". But don't dismiss this with your little "adopted puppies" example; this is only the first stage of the argument, getting rid of the false (IMO) assumption that she has to be LE because she was the high priestess of Bhaal in another life. I can't very well argue her as another alignment (CE in this case) while you're determined that she's LE somehow by the rules, now can I? After all, rules trump judgements.

C'mon Fel, it's adopted kittens, not puppies. Sheesh.

 

... but that's exactly what I'm going to argue anyway. I don't see how she could have reached such a position in Bhaal's hierarchy as anything other than LE--she's not just a priest, she's The (Wo)Man™. The one major act she's undertaken since his death is that she's decided to betray him and take his essence for herself. I think it's certainly an evil act, but is it chaotic? And chaotic enough to justify an alignment shift? This is essentially all the information we have upon which to make an alignment determination.

 

As for 2e rules, it's my understanding that there are three levels of alignment restrictions: worshipers, priests, and specialty priests. BG2 certainly ignores these entirely with its three kits (Helm, dramatically so). That being said, I'm not trying to argue it's a rules requirement that she's LE.

 

I'll be honest: I'm not that strongly in favor of Mel being LE. But I haven't seen any evidence to suggest she's anything else, so it remains IMO the best choice.

[SimDing0]

Melissan in her pre-finmel incarnations is presumably lawful good so you can't Detect Alignment on her and anticipate her betrayal. Because nobody would have seen that coming.

 

I find it highly likely they paid attention to finmel01

You'd hope so, wouldn't you. But then there's Irenicus. Sigh.

 

I don't see how she could have reached such a position in Bhaal's hierarchy as anything other than LE

I think, in pursuing this argument, you're coming dangerously close to adhering to the rulebooks over the game. I agree that if Melissan had been, say, lawful good and we'd had to pick out an alternative, Bhaal's alignment would have been a reasonable guideline, but where chaotic evil is conceivable the change strikes me as spurious.

[CamDawg]

Heh, I was coming home from lunch and was about to say I had changed my mind for that very reason. Though it's minor n the face of the other considerations, I also think that Ascension's lack of alignment change for Melissan--though certainly not as clear as Balthazar's change to LG--was probably the tipping point.

[Gorilym]

Melissan in her pre-finmel incarnations is presumably lawful good so you can't Detect Alignment on her and anticipate her betrayal.

 

Yes, I think that's a reasonable interpretation. But if it's a concern, couldn't those Melissans be given immunity to the applicable spells? It seems to me that there's a consensus that these .cres should be evil, the question is rather which flavour of evil - so adding said immunities might perhaps be a good idea whether LE or CE?

[berelinde]

I agree with Gorilym, that the concealment of her alignment should be accomplished with a spell.

 

It has such a real feel to it: Melissan is engaged in a conscious act of deception, and it makes sense that she is concealing her true alignment.

 

I think it would be kind of cool if suitably powerful magic could strip her of that concealment and her true nature revealed because it would add an element of realism, but I concede that for plot purposes, this is impossible.

[Felinoid]

As for 2e rules, it's my understanding that there are three levels of alignment restrictions: worshipers, priests, and specialty priests.

Ah, now there's the kind of FR-specific rule I was asking for! Generally I've never seen a delineation of people who are "disallowed" to believe in a god by their alignment. It's an extreme unlikelyhood, but it's not like the god is going to come down and say, "I don't like you; stop believing in me." From what I've seen, it's only split into two levels of requirement, with generic clerics that follow a deity having one requirement for them to even be granted normal clerical powers, and 'kitted' clerics having a different level of requirement for the special powers. Requiring a cobbler who happens to believe in Bhaal to be non-good...well, it makes sense that he wouldn't be, but an actual forbiddance is a bit far.'

 

And regardless of that (it was only a sidetrack for my personal quest of 2e understanding anyway ), my main point was that she could have changed since the time when those requirements were held to standard, which makes her being LE no longer necessary. Getting onto why I think she's CE, I don't. But I do think Bioware thought she was. It's basically the same plan as Sarevok's, and look how they classified him. Combined with her final iteration being CE...I think it's enough to leave her as is.

 

On the alignment deception issue...why not just give the other iterations 100% MR? It's not like it hasn't been done on any number of other plot-required NPCs, and it blocks Detect Evil well enough.

[Drew]

On the alignment deception issue...why not just give the other iterations 100% MR? It's not like it hasn't been done on any number of other plot-required NPCs, and it blocks Detect Evil well enough.

Not good enough. She'll still act as if you struck her the first time you cast holy smite in Saradush. I say make her early iterations TN and be done with it.

[Gorilym]

Not good enough. She'll still act as if you struck her the first time you cast holy smite in Saradush. I say make her early iterations TN and be done with it.

 

What RP-ing reason would you have to cast holy smite on this non-hostile (albeit suspicious) character? I think giving her specific immunities to detect evil / know alignment, or if necessary, total magic immunity is preferable to a TN change.

 

On a different note, why is there no thread for CN alignment changes? Are there none at all in the fixpack? (or if there is one and I've missed it somehow, link please?)

[CamDawg]

On a different note, why is there no thread for CN alignment changes? Are there none at all in the fixpack? (or if there is one and I've missed it somehow, link please?)

Ah, sheesh. I thought I had reposted all seven of the remaining alignments, but I missed CN. The CN alignment changes are now posted.

[berelinde]

Not good enough. She'll still act as if you struck her the first time you cast holy smite in Saradush. I say make her early iterations TN and be done with it.

 

What RP-ing reason would you have to cast holy smite on this non-hostile (albeit suspicious) character? I think giving her specific immunities to detect evil / know alignment, or if necessary, total magic immunity is preferable to a TN change.

 

You, the hero of Baldur's Gate, elvendom, and possibly the known world, might feel threatened by the 3 orcs that Gromnir employs to put down the uprising at the gate in Saradush. There are also 3 humans, IIRC, but the orcs are definitely going to be evil, because they're, well, orcs. You never know when holy sarcasm... I mean Holy Smite... might be necessary.

 

I'm not making fun of anyone here. But I have an active imagination, and I was amused by the mental image of bringing out the whole righteous arsenal that might damage an evil Mellissan just because of a few orcs.

 

Edit: It occurs to me tho that you do see her elsewhere, if infrequently, so this might not be as unreasonable as I thought.

[Drew]

What RP-ing reason would you have to cast holy smite on this non-hostile (albeit suspicious) character? I think giving her specific immunities to detect evil / know alignment, or if necessary, total magic immunity is preferable to a TN change.

More or less what Berelinde said. The first time you meet her you are under attack by orcs and she happens to be in the area of effect. If you cast holy smite to defend yourself, she acts as if you attacked her.....thus giving away her alignment and her eeeeevil agenda the very first time you meet her.

[berelinde]

Still, I don't think I would ever imagine anyone actually casting such a spell to deal with a handful of orcs.

 

I like the idea of undetectable alignment, though, because it feels more right. Is it possible through any means apart from just giving her a neutral alignment?

[Drew]

Still, I don't think I would ever imagine anyone actually casting such a spell to deal with a handful of orcs.

I did. How do you think I knew what Melissan does when you cast the spell?