Kalah's Tower Stronghold Quests

[Wounded_Lion]

I think, Wounded Lion, that you and I play at opposite ends of the alignment spectrum.

 

No matter. There's room for everybody

 

But it does sound like incentive to try an evil PC, from time to time.

 

Indeed. I am veeery impressed by your work on Gavin (your skill in certain areas far surpasses my own, I think) but I'd never pick him up (I'd probably kill him, actually... ). Different styles can be fun. I like to play a Champion-type every once in a while.

 

- D

[Wounded_Lion]

A quick note: Work on the mod will be slow this week. Strippers RL stuff will leave me with little modding time this week (I should have time to check this thread, however, so feel free to keep posting feedback and/or ideas).

 

 

- D

[Gorilym]

One thing I was wondering about - when you say Kalah's Tower will function as a stronghold, do you mean that accepting it will exclude getting one of the vanilla class-specific strongholds?

 

I don't know if this *has* to conflict with UB at all. If you can bear it, find out what material UB adds to the quest itself. I'm not talking about what happens when you get outside the tent. I don't think there's anything. Players would have the option whether to choose to kill Kalah (and continue with an UB compatible route) or side with Kalah (his service to a demonic master would not preclude a bit of help from Jaffir--that tent would be a lot to accomplish, even for an ogre mage equipped with a RHI).

 

I think you could have it both ways.

 

Yeah, I don't think that there would necessarily be an inherent incompatibility, since the UB Kalah content assumes that you kill Kalah and whatnot. Sort of related to this, one of the things I dislike about that UB component is that Jafir is so... unimpressive. A more-or-less garden variety rakshasa, ugh. An archdevil or lich as Kalah's master would be much more suitable.

 

Strippers RL stuff will leave me with little modding time this week

 

Strikethrough humour is good stuff.

[Wounded_Lion]

One thing I was wondering about - when you say Kalah's Tower will function as a stronghold, do you mean that accepting it will exclude getting one of the vanilla class-specific strongholds?

 

Accepting Kalah's Tower as a stronghold does not prevent the player from gaining the normal class-specific strongholds. The Tower is essentially a bonus stronghold for Evil characters. Unbalanced? Perhaps. But the whole freakin' game is coded with a strong bias against Evil characters. So this is my revenge against the developers.

 

Yeah, I don't think that there would necessarily be an inherent incompatibility, since the UB Kalah content assumes that you kill Kalah and whatnot. Sort of related to this, one of the things I dislike about that UB component is that Jafir is so... unimpressive. A more-or-less garden variety rakshasa, ugh. An archdevil or lich as Kalah's master would be much more suitable.

 

I think so, too. I haven't had the time to develop that aspect of the story yet, but rest assured that Jafir (if included at all) won't be Kalah's master/benefactor.

 

Strikethrough humour is good stuff.

 

 

- D

[berelinde]

This gets into the whole business about the philosophy of modding, and I'm not sure I'm up to it, but there are two ways you can go with it.

 

You could scrap Jaffir and throw in the lich/demon/whatever and then it would be incompatible with UB.

 

*Or* you could make that part optional, and then UB would not be incompatible. It is no hard thing to make a part of a mod optional, even if it winds up being a significant part. All you have to do is separate the material outside the circus tent and learn to work subcomponents. I managed it, and you're more intelligent than I am.

 

There are plenty of players who have more than one game going at a time. Do you really want to prevent people who want to have the "good" benefit from UB from installing Kalah's Tower?

 

In other words, players like me, who usually run good parties, will be more willing to try an evil run to check out a cool mod if they can still play their favorite "good" quests on another savegame.

[Wounded_Lion]

I managed it, and you're more intelligent than I am.

 

I don't know if I'd say that. You seem pretty sharp, yourself. I do know how to work subcomponents... so I'll consider compatibility as an option. The Jafir resolution is just so... bland. I'll give the matter some serious thought.

 

There are plenty of players who have more than one game going at a time. Do you really want to prevent people who want to have the "good" benefit from UB from installing Kalah's Tower?

 

In other words, players like me, who usually run good parties, will be more willing to try an evil run to check out a cool mod if they can still play their favorite "good" quests on another savegame.

 

Good points.

 

 

- D

[SixOfSpades]

What, I can't delete my own double posts?

[SixOfSpades]

I have to disagree with you, Six. There simply aren't enough quality "Evil-mods" available (show me three such mods and I'd be impressed). I do in fact want to bring several of the more worthwhile Evil concepts that I'm familiar with together under one mod. And I couldn't care less about leaving things for other modders to do.

All right, then consider what you might do in the future. Wouldn't an Evil plan involving Carsomyr be better suited for an Evil path through the Paladin stronghold, wherein you side with Anarg and overthrow Wessalen? If I were you, I would try to avoid the "eggs-in-one-basket" pattern as much as I could--it's like you're declaring a monopoly on Evil, so that any Evil character who doesn't take your stronghold isn't roleplaying their alignment.

 

Also, who else is working on Evil-mods anyway? No one that I know of...

I have a couple of non-BG projects that I want to take care of first, and then I shall begin my first mod, Heals on Wheels. After that, I will be writing some recruitable NPCs . . . thirty-six of them, in fact. 11 of those 36 will be Evil, with quests that I assure you will be alignment-appropriate. And there are more Evil ideas where those came from, believe you me.

 

Doesn't the [Crom Faeyr] Scroll tell of the other pieces? Thax doesn't have them or know where they are, but he could assume that they exist somewhere on Faerun, right?

True, but let's not fall into the unfortunate, all-too-often-abused fallacy of assuming that, if you find one half of an ancient, fabulously powerful artifact, it is absolutely INEVITABLE that you will blunder across the other half somewhere. No right-thinking Dragon would think that the Fates themselves would cater to your whims like that--I mean, come on, it's not like you're going to find a relic like the Rune of Clangeddin just tossed into some random chest in a nameless woodsman's cottage somewhere. (He said, with just the slightest touch of irony.)

 

I'm pretty sure that Thax is a male (in my current install, at least, the gender is set to male).

Now that I think about it, I wasn't sure if it was Thax or Nizi. Of course, given BioWare's quirks, they might very well both be [Neither]. But it's still good to remind modders to check on this sort of thing. One thing though: Are you sure that Thax will fit on that bridge without looking like an elephant guarding a marshmallow?

 

 

 

One thing I was wondering about - when you say Kalah's Tower will function as a stronghold, do you mean that accepting it will exclude getting one of the vanilla class-specific strongholds?

If this were a class-specific stronghold (and it was me who was making it, not WL), I would make it exclusive--I hate the very idea of the All-Strongholds mod, enabling players to run every keep at once and thereby shoot the replay factor right in the foot. But since (almost) any class can take this path, I say it should be left to the player; if they don't want to divide their time like that, they can always say, "No, thanks" to one of their offered strongholds.

 

one of the things I dislike about that UB component is that Jafir is so... unimpressive. A more-or-less garden variety rakshasa, ugh. An archdevil or lich as Kalah's master would be much more suitable.

A garden-variety invincible Rakshasa, yes. But you're right, I think that UB's Jafir was built with a little too much concern for the fact that the party is very likely to be just starting out when you meet him. In my view, he should be more insulting and more dangerous, but less lethal--he knows the sort of chaos and destruction that CHARNAME is likely to wreak, and he doesn't want to prevent that. So he should strike cruelly, but wield no weapon; preferring beating the party senseless to killing them outright. Just FYI, one of the 36 NPCs I mentioned brings a re-encounter with Jafir, who is more . . . interesting than the UB version.

[Wounded_Lion]

Thirty-six? Holy hells. That's a lot of NPCs.

 

I'll respond to the other stuff in a bit. I need to be on my way out the door in a few minutes...

 

- D

[Wounded_Lion]

All right, then consider what you might do in the future. Wouldn't an Evil plan involving Carsomyr be better suited for an Evil path through the Paladin stronghold, wherein you side with Anarg and overthrow Wessalen? If I were you, I would try to avoid the "eggs-in-one-basket" pattern as much as I could--it's like you're declaring a monopoly on Evil, so that any Evil character who doesn't take your stronghold isn't roleplaying their alignment.

 

An interesting argument, but: The inclusion of a method of tainting Carsomyr in the Tower stronghold quests does not exclude the inclusion of such a method in other quests. The player would simply have a choice of which method to use to taint the sword. We just have to be careful to code for exceptions (i.e. - make sure that choosing NOT to taint Carsomyr via Thax doesn't stop the other Tower stronghold quests from proceeding).

 

So. The 'Taint Carsomyr' quest stays. 'Cause I like it.

 

True, but let's not fall into the unfortunate, all-too-often-abused fallacy of assuming that, if you find one half of an ancient, fabulously powerful artifact, it is absolutely INEVITABLE that you will blunder across the other half somewhere. No right-thinking Dragon would think that the Fates themselves would cater to your whims like that--I mean, come on, it's not like you're going to find a relic like the Rune of Clangeddin just tossed into some random chest in a nameless woodsman's cottage somewhere. (He said, with just the slightest touch of irony.)

 

Indeed.

 

But one could argue that he must deem it at least somewhat valuable to keep it on his person (or in his stash)...

 

Now that I think about it, I wasn't sure if it was Thax or Nizi. Of course, given BioWare's quirks, they might very well both be [Neither]. But it's still good to remind modders to check on this sort of thing. One thing though: Are you sure that Thax will fit on that bridge without looking like an elephant guarding a marshmallow?

 

He fits. I do some basic playtesting myself. But I could still use some help playtesting once these quests are released.

 

A garden-variety invincible Rakshasa, yes. But you're right, I think that UB's Jafir was built with a little too much concern for the fact that the party is very likely to be just starting out when you meet him. In my view, he should be more insulting and more dangerous, but less lethal--he knows the sort of chaos and destruction that CHARNAME is likely to wreak, and he doesn't want to prevent that. So he should strike cruelly, but wield no weapon; preferring beating the party senseless to killing them outright. Just FYI, one of the 36 NPCs I mentioned brings a re-encounter with Jafir, who is more . . . interesting than the UB version.

 

Tell it to Andyr. lol.

 

Some other notes:

 

Currently, only Evil characters may gain the Tower as a stronghold. I am considering offering the stronghold to Neutral characters. Neutral characters can choose to do Evil things some of the time, and so I think that this change makes sense.

 

- D

[Wounded_Lion]

Good news!

 

 

Morrow Gate now has its own forum at RPG Dungeon:

 

http://forums.rpgdungeon.net/index.php/board,49.0.html

 

If you would be so kind, please post your thoughts at the new forum. I'd like to stop cluttering G3's forums with my mod news and development process. Plus, I'm the moderator over there and can keep some semblance of order (sticky posts, rename them to descriptive names, that kind of thing, etc).

 

- D