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Bioware's depiction of Athkatla is terrible


Guest braden

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If SHS is anything to base that opinion off of (since it came up as several of the top ten links) it's a pretty poor showing for AE modding vs. IE modding. Though that could be an argument for AE modding in itself (its lack of mods).

 

No, Studios is definitely not indicative of the overall NWN modding scene. Major gaming portals have supported NWN modding since day 1, so there has never been any need (nor any particular aptitude) for Infinity-oriented sites to catch on as NWN modding destinations. Have a gander at http://nwvault.ign.com .

 

Intriguing that Studios would rate so highly (I see it as #10 for "aurora modding" on Google, just as you say) although I'd guess that has a lot to do with the fact that virtually nobody refers to it as the engine--they just talk about NWN, not the guts.

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No, Studios is definitely not indicative of the overall NWN modding scene. Major gaming portals have supported NWN modding since day 1... Intriguing that Studios would rate so highly (I see it as #10 for "aurora modding" on Google, just as you say) although I'd guess that has a lot to do with the fact that virtually nobody refers to it as the engine--they just talk about NWN, not the guts.
I stand corrected. I should've guessed it'd show up more likely under NWN than Aurora. Though I was also going by some other "metamodding" sites such as http://games.moddb.com/. One could argue the NWN community had a prepackaged fanbase from the MMORPG, for what that's worth.
I suspect someone with the right level of charm and the right project could find an area artist to work for the usual modding stipend of $0--if, and please read this carefully so I don't have to repeat it a third time, the process of turning that flat map into game content wasn't so discouragingly onerous.
No one said that part was easy. And even I suggested it was only easier (marginally) than drawing a huge area map spanning hundreds of thousands of square pixels by scratch. But even with great tools and reference information, turning that map into a usable area is a lot of work. And without those tools, yes... probably even more work than drawing the graphical map, however huge it might be (especially if you already have some good tilesets to work with). But then, that's not necessarily the artist's problem, is it? (Unless the artist is also the area coder.)
Granted, I was willing to pay these people...
Oh well that changes *everything* - I can draw a city in a couple days too for *cash*. :p I was thinking more from the perspective of a lazy and/or busy semi-part-time modder with multiple other projects, an actual paying job, etc... Anyway, I guess this wanders far afield from the query of the original poster, who has now gone off to see if the NWN modding community is less crazy. :p

 

[Edit: Oh and I forgot to ask... what is TOEE? I have to assume you're not referring to Temple of Elemental Evil, a game I almost ran out and bought a couple years back but was dissuaded by poor reviews, including those of the hardcore gamers running the store. Though I hope that doesn't spark another debate if it *is* what you're talking about. :)]

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Though I was also going by some other "metamodding" sites such as http://games.moddb.com/.

 

ModDB caters primarily to FPS modding. They didn't even have BG2 listed until I asked them to add it some years back, so it doesn't surprise me overmuch that other RPG modders don't use it (although we have historically received good clickthrough from ModDB, all things considered.) And, again, since major portals like IGN have massive and professionally-managed mod sites for NWN, NWN modders and modplayers have tended not to go to indie sites--there just hasn't been any need to.

 

[Edit: Oh and I forgot to ask... what is TOEE? I have to assume you're not referring to Temple of Elemental Evil, a game I almost ran out and bought a couple years back but was dissuaded by poor reviews, including those of the hardcore gamers running the store. Though I hope that doesn't spark another debate if it *is* what you're talking about. :p]

 

Yes, I am referring to Temple Of Elemental Evil.

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That's why we see twenty of them jumping at the opportunity every time someone posts that s/he needs help with area creation! Why, we literally are waist-deep in the competent area artists in the community. What, you haven't seen all these numerous mods that add new 'from scratch' areas?

Well, DLTC has somewhere in the vicinity of 100 original areas. If you're looking more modern, Quest Pack contains new areas (I forget how many I actually put in the current release). Perhaps the problem is that the mods in which these things turn up are, in your words, "highly non-interesting to you". Shop around.

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Of course, Sim, of course. DLTCEP - the legendary project almost as good as RTW in terms of release-ability, and the Quest Pack. That's the whole ONE released project in what? almost 10 years the community exists. The exceptions confirm the rules, really.

 

Well, technically you could also do an IE conversion or standalone project in the spirit of Classic Adventures or other such projects. Though that perhaps makes what the original poster requested (a pretty complex task) even more complex. On the other hand, you could argue it makes it easier, since you could ignore a lot of structures and relationships within BG2... though then you'd have to build your own such elements if you wanted to give it any depth.

 

And the argument is that if you want to do a thing like Classic Adventures, and write all the new story and all new content anyways, why do it in IE by merging maps from all other games, struggling to find audience (seeing how BG audience after all do want more adventures for the same character) if you can do it in AE and address the market where the players are resigned to new stories, not the additions to the 'best EVAR' OC?

 

One more argument in favor of new modders starting on NWN2 - at present (in 2 years it will be the new toy, say DA) is that BG is not getting anywhere - it'll still be an old classical shoe. But if you spend a couple years pocking with BG2 now by the time you're ready to make a switch, NWN2 will be old. So, if you continue coming late to the table, it's no wonder you'll be missing most of the fiesta.

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Of course, Sim, of course. DLTCEP - the legendary project almost as good as RTW in terms of release-ability,

Irrelevant. The areas noted are released and playable as part of the demo. The fact that it was never a complete game is neither here nor there in terms of the quantity of area art that's been put on the public's plate. I can point you to many other mods with original art: Fields of the Dead, Check the Bodies (a city), the list goes on. Hell, we could even count the tragically bad backdrops in Ajoc's Minimod!

 

Of course, this is just assuming we allow released projects. But given the contention that it's the IMPLEMENTATION that's harder than the actual art, let's allow anything which has a screenshot of a completed new area up. This gives us all manner of mods from Black Tidings through Mindflayer's multitude of TCs and the World Transition Project right up to Blades of Brynnlaw and Return to Windspear which have demonstrably produced but not implemented area art.

 

And DLTCEP is the editor, not the mod.

 

The sarcasm turns me on, but please do your research before arguing mod history with me. :p

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But if you spend a couple years pocking with BG2 now by the time you're ready to make a switch, NWN2 will be old. So, if you continue coming late to the table, it's no wonder you'll be missing most of the fiesta.
Fair enough argument. Seeya. *goes off to mod for NWN2*

 

*comes back briefly after seeing some screenshots* But wait... I prefer an engine with overhead views and turn-based combat. I don't *like* engines with camera views and realtime combat. I never have. Call me old-fashioned, but... a lot of people don't like them. These "realism" features rarely work well from an CRPG perspective, unless you're into hack-and-slash or "dungeon crawlers." Um... I'll shut up now, because I know all that will probably spark an off-topic debate. Though I guess it hardly matters since the original poster probably abandoned this topic.

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_2:

Neverwinter Nights 2's publisher, Atari, announced that the toolset would be available to pre-order customers for download one month prior to the retail release of the game in its entirety. Initially scheduled to be available on September 18, 2006, the pre-release toolset was delayed... The cause and resolution of the last delay remains unknown.

 

Since its release, the official toolset forums have received a steady stream of complaints from a portion of users who, despite meeting all system requirements, are unable to operate the toolset without frequent crashes of the program. As yet, no solution has been provided by the developer...

Not very encouraging. And I'm not sure... but is it saying you have to *buy* the modding tool on top of the game? Also according to the article, apparently the engine is not called Aurora2, it's called "Electron." I guess there could be modder-designed tools, but I'm not sure Atari/Bioware/Obsidian or whatever is going to turn a blind eye to that (like they have to IE tools) if they've already got a proprietary modding tool (probably looked at this market and decided they could cash in on it :p).
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*comes back briefly after seeing some screenshots* But wait... I prefer an engine with overhead views and turn-based combat. I don't *like* engines with camera views and realtime combat. I never have. Call me old-fashioned, but... a lot of people don't like them. These "realism" features rarely work well from an CRPG perspective, unless you're into hack-and-slash or "dungeon crawlers."

 

You can have overhead views in NWN2 if that's what you want - the camera has four separate modes and can be repositioned, though a lot of peole are complaining about it's speed in doing so. Turn-based combat, I'd have to check but I don't think that's possible. You can pause, and queue up several actions for each of the characters in your party, which is an advance on what you can do in BG2.

 

Since its release, the official toolset forums have received a steady stream of complaints from a portion of users who, despite meeting all system requirements, are unable to operate the toolset without frequent crashes of the program. As yet, no solution has been provided by the developer...
Not very encouraging. And I'm not sure... but is it saying you have to *buy* the modding tool on top of the game? Also according to the article, apparently the engine is not called Aurora2, it's called "Electron." I guess there could be modder-designed tools, but I'm not sure Atari/Bioware/Obsidian or whatever is going to turn a blind eye to that (like they have to IE tools) if they've already got a proprietary modding tool (probably looked at this market and decided they could cash in on it :p).

 

Yes, people have complained a lot. They complained about the toolset in NWN1 as well, but it didn't stop people producing excellent work with it. You certainly don't have to buy the toolset separately, it's an integral part of the game.

 

On the subject of modder-designed tools, while I disagree with the way they've done it the Toolset is designed to allow people to write their own plugins. Some already exist, inclduing one which can import geographic data and convert it into maps that the toolset can use. And their are other tools that modify the UI and similar things, which Obsidian are not just ignoring but which they actively seem to encourage.

 

 

Edit:

 

Just to note, there is at least one mod for NWN1 that has already recreated parts of Athkatla for the Aurora engine. It's called Saleron's Gambit, and I think the relevant bit is Part 3.

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I don't know if it's canon or not, but I did blunder across a used copy of Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II which included source material for Athkatla and its various districts, notable buildings, etc. It did not bear any resemblance to BG2--for example, it described the Copper Coronet as run by four retired adventurers--and included two districts of Athkatla that don't exist in the game.

 

It is canon, yeah. IIRC they were going to name it something else, but dubbed it to match the game's release.

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Of course, this is just assuming we allow released projects. But given the contention that it's the IMPLEMENTATION that's harder than the actual art, let's allow anything which has a screenshot of a completed new area up. This gives us all manner of mods from Black Tidings through Mindflayer's multitude of TCs and the World Transition Project right up to Blades of Brynnlaw and Return to Windspear which have demonstrably produced but not implemented area art.

 

I think that it's released projects that matter, to be honest, Sim - and that's without any sarcasm or jibes- when we discuss the possibility of doing one mod or another and selecting the engine to work with (publically or privately).

 

Again, quite seriously, I agree with JC that if your goal is to mod BG, then modidng BG you should and all tools are there in place.

 

But I really have no other arguments at present in favor of doing a large area and story heavy stand-alone mod in IE other than familiarity with IE.

 

The question to ask yourself, I think is "What I really want?" and if the answer is "My own new story" not "A 1001th add-on to BG" then looking into the newer tools that are designed for making new stories is probably in order.

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Then again, when all I wanted was a mediocre gothic cathedral with buttresses and spires.... :p Nope, I don't want it any more. But I am very tempted with NWN2 after I am done with IWD2. I have that story- (right, when don't I have one?) Hopefully, it will not prove a dissappointment au par with the first NWN.

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