Calculation the level of the clone made by Simulacrum

[Guest Ecoris]

I've gote SoA+ToB.

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From this webpage:

 

Single-classed mages: Original caster's level - (caster's level / 2)

 

Multiclassed mages: Original caster's level - (caster's level / 2) for each class

 

Dual classed mages: Original caster's level - (caster's total levels / 4)

 

This is true. The clone is supposed to have 60% of the casters level, thus wizards at level 30 or above should be able to create clones that can cast level 9 spells but they can't. On the other hand dual-classed mages can really set powerful clones if they dual into mages at a low level.

 

I wonder if you feel this is how it's supposed to be.

[Nythrun]

I feel that whether or not this byzantine formula insinuated itself into the game accidentally, it's something handled entirely by the .exe and isn't moddable, sorry

 

/edit

 

Though a description with less in the way of false specifics isn't a terrible idea.

[CamDawg]

Sticking those formulas in the descript isn't much of an improvement and (to me) breaks immersion. I'd rather just qualify the statements (i.e. in general it has about 60%) instead (though it seems 50% might be more accurate).

 

The MC formula can't be right: it implies that multiclasses characters would always get an extremely low level simulcrum. If the mage level was n, and the other level was n + m, then the formula reduces to:

 

simulcrum level = n - (n/2) - ((n+m)/2) 
			= n - n/2 - n/2 - m/2 
			= -m/2

 

Given that the levels in a multiclass are either equal or really close, you'd usually end up with an extremely low-level simulcrum. If the levels were equal, m = 0 and the simulcrum is level 0; if they differed by one then m = +-1 and the resultant simulcrum would be level -+0.5. Triple-classes would always be assured of a negatively-leveled simulcrum, because it would be the above formula with an additional term: the subtraction of one-half of the level of the third class (p is the level difference between the third class and the mage level):

 

simulcrum level = n - (n/2) - ((n+m)/2) - ((n+p)/2)
			= n - n/2 - n/2 - m/2 - ((n+p)/2)
			= -m/2 - ((n+p)/2)
			= -n/2 - m/2 - p/2

[Guest Ecoris]

I think you misunderstand what it says about multiclasses. I always read

 

"Original caster's level - (caster's level / 2) for each class"

 

as: The level of each class is reduced by half the level of the mage class. E.g. a level 8/10 mage/thief would create a clone who's levels where reduced by 4 each (½ * 8; the mage level), resulting in a level 4/6 mage/thief.

[Guest Guest_Nythrun_*]

I forget sometimes how obscure my penchant for bad jokes makes my prose

 

So for clarity: the formula in the spell reference guide has nothing to do with anything.

 

Simulacra are level drained a certain number of levels (3-9, I think? can't check right now) based on the experience stored in their originating creature file. It's much simpler than what's listed there - though the reference guide is correct in that multi-classes get shafted (and triple classes especially so).

 

We can't change either the way experience is stored in the game or the way level drain works.

[Guest Ecoris]

So for clarity: the formula in the spell reference guide has nothing to do with anything.

 

Simulacra are level drained a certain number of levels (3-9, I think? can't check right now) based on the experience stored in their originating creature file. It's much simpler than what's listed there - though the reference guide is correct in that multi-classes get shafted (and triple classes especially so).

 

We can't change either the way experience is stored in the game or the way level drain works.

No. The spell reference guide from the link in my first post (I assume that's what you're referring to) is correct on this issue. I have run tests on it with single- multi- and dual classes. (You can have them if you want).

[Guest Guest_Nythrun_*]

A clone of a character at the experience point cap is going to have their original levels minus a level drain effect for nine levels, and not follow those formulae.

 

Are you saying simulacra don't have a level-drained effect in your testing, or are you saying that the original level is getting replaced by some other value? Neither ought to be possible.

[Guest Ecoris]

Where did you get that from??

 

A level 31 sorceror's clone can't cast level 9 spells. The number of spells it can cast correspond to a level 16 sorceror.

 

A level 11/30 thief mage creates a clone that can cast level 9 spells. The number of spells it can cast correspond to a level 20 mage.

[Nythrun]

From in game files

 

If I do recall correctly, a fighter mage thief at the XP cap is level 17/16/20. Its simulacra will be drained nine levels from each class, not eight. Have a look.

 

I don't recall offhand what the amount of levels drained for a level 31 sorcerer, so let's use your values

 

(31/2) = 15.5

 

31 - 15.5 = 15.5 Okay, the divided level is truncated, or we won't be getting 16 here.

 

And take a level 8 thief/31 mage dual class

 

(31 + 8 )/ 4 = 9.75 should produce a level 8/31 clone drained to 8/22.

 

It's 8/21; the clone is drained ten levels anyway.

 

The formula is correct in much the same way a stopped clock is correct twice a day

 

It's all moot though: we can't rebuild the engine or repair opcodes (and if we could, there are some that are actually broken that would be better fixes )

[Guest Ecoris]

Okay. Perhaps the formula is not 100% correct. But it is still the closest I have ever seen.

I did some tests with a multi-classed illusionist/thief. He casts Simulacrum and I use ctrl+q to include the clone in the party. It's level drained and I wrote down it's levels and total experience.

 

levels: 16/20 (4.5M XP) creates a level 7/11 clone

16/21 (5M XP) creates a level 7/12 clone

17/21 (5.25M) -> 8/12

17/22 (5.5M) -> 7/12

17/23 (5.75M) -> 7/13

18/23 (6M) -> 8/13

18/24 (6.25M) -> 8/14

18/25 (6.6M) -> 7/14

19/25 (6.75M) -> 8/14

19/26 (7.25M) -> 8/15

19/27 (7.48M) -> 8/16

20/27 (7.50M) -> 8/15

20/28 (8M) -> 8/16

 

This suggest a formula for multis like: Each class' level is reduced by (total levels)/4.

x.25 and x.5 is rounded down while x.75 is rounded up.

 

This rounding procedure is also consistent with what you wrote about dual-classed mages.

 

F/M/T: at 8M XP the levels are 18/17/22. It's clone's levels are 9/8/13, i.e. 9 levels lower. But notice that the total level is 18+17+22 = 57, and 57/6 = 9.5, which is rounded down to 9.

Therefore I guess the multi-class formula in general (including triple-classes) is:

Each class' level is reduced by (total levels)/(2 * total # of classes)

 

I also tried with a level 30/1 mage thief dual class. It becomes level 22/1. A level 31/1 also loses 9 levels and becomes level 23/1. However the # of spells at each spell level was 5,5,5, 5,5,5, 3,3,3 in both cases which is quite odd. It should have had 5 level 7 spell slots, but only had 3.

 

While it can't be corrected I still think it's good to known how it really works. If not for anything else, correcting the manual's description is better than nothing.