New Kit for BG2 possible?

[ronin69hof]

How about not letting him use weapons at all? After all he has a different use for Arcane magic than either a mage or sorcerer and has little to no time to become proficient in any weapon type.

 

ronin

[berelinde]

That blast of his doesn't really has to be one of existing spells, does it? You can make a new spell which will have animation of, say, Magic Missile (single, as if cast at level 1), or Chromatic Orb, but will require to-hit roll and do damage varying per level.

 

I think ability to wear armor with no penalties is too much of an advantage. Either that, or don't let him use swords/blunts. Or reduce his THAC0 progression to that of the sorcererer/mage, then his blast will probably be hitting targets less than 20% of the time.

 

As long as spell selection he gets is reasonably limited, the result may be more or less balanced.

 

Your idea does sound like it would balance the class nicely.

 

Create a new spell, using the animation of Magic Missile, single as if cast at level 1, etc, that requires a to-hit roll and does damage proportional to level (1d2/level), give them access to thief armor and bard weapons, and give him the THACO and level progression of a mage, half of regular bardic lore, no pocket picking, no bardsong, and no spells besides eldritch blast and I'd call that class balanced.

 

Eldritch blast 1d2/level doesn't sound like much, but at level 10, it's going to do 10 to 20 points of damage if it connects. I wouldn't suggest a save for half or anything, because you're already allowing that it can miss. If you allow the possibility of critical hits, which I would consider fair, you're up to 20-40. At level 14, we're talking a *minimum* of 14 points damage, but you can do the math. Not bad for something you can do every round all day long.

 

I predict that this character would probably rely on conventional weapons more at low levels, then move to blasting things more at upper levels, which makes sense to me.

 

Actually, written like this, I'd be willing to give it a try myself.

 

Edit: I hope we didn't scare him off...

[Guest Guest_Alucard_*]

That blast of his doesn't really has to be one of existing spells, does it? You can make a new spell which will have animation of, say, Magic Missile (single, as if cast at level 1), or Chromatic Orb, but will require to-hit roll and do damage varying per level.

 

I think ability to wear armor with no penalties is too much of an advantage. Either that, or don't let him use swords/blunts. Or reduce his THAC0 progression to that of the sorcererer/mage, then his blast will probably be hitting targets less than 20% of the time.

 

As long as spell selection he gets is reasonably limited, the result may be more or less balanced.

 

It does not have to be a existing spell, i thought of a spell with rising damage every 3-5 levels e.g.: at lvl 1 it does 1-2 dmg and so on until at level 23 it does 9-10, i agree, using armor, even only leather is a bit strong, but the kit got no weapon specialisation. Also he has a chance of missing and a resist chance on the spell. Not being able to use blund and katanas etc is ok, you are right, i think, sword and staff is all that is allowed. Also his fighting skills are like the mages. I think he might also not be able to dual wield.

[Alucard]

Your idea does sound like it would balance the class nicely.

 

Create a new spell, using the animation of Magic Missile, single as if cast at level 1, etc, that requires a to-hit roll and does damage proportional to level (1d2/level), give them access to thief armor and bard weapons, and give him the THACO and level progression of a mage, half of regular bardic lore, no pocket picking, no bardsong, and no spells besides eldritch blast and I'd call that class balanced.

 

Eldritch blast 1d2/level doesn't sound like much, but at level 10, it's going to do 10 to 20 points of damage if it connects. I wouldn't suggest a save for half or anything, because you're already allowing that it can miss. If you allow the possibility of critical hits, which I would consider fair, you're up to 20-40. At level 14, we're talking a *minimum* of 14 points damage, but you can do the math. Not bad for something you can do every round all day long.

 

I predict that this character would probably rely on conventional weapons more at low levels, then move to blasting things more at upper levels, which makes sense to me.

 

Actually, written like this, I'd be willing to give it a try myself.

 

Edit: I hope we didn't scare him off...

 

That exactly what i thought, 1 spell, thief armor, bard weapon (no 2h except staffs) and mage THACO and progression. Half lore is also good and no pocket picking, no bardsong, and no spells besides eldritch blast. Even the spell idea is brilliant. Just one question left... Weapon spec yes/no and if yes how far?

 

Is anyone able to make this mod? my limited knowledge of BG2 modding is far from being able to do this.

 

Edit: Don´t worry, its very hard to scare me off as soon as i got an idea burned into my head.

[berelinde]

No weapon specialization. That's the one thing that I am convinced should be the province of fighters and fighter multi-classes.

 

I also like the dual-wielding restriction. I'd shy away from the restriction against blunt weapons and katanas, but that's just me.

 

And I really like the idea of advancing at intervals rather than at every level.

 

 

As for your statement that that is what you meant all along, sometimes it takes a bit of discussion for that to be made clear. People are like that.

 

I'm glad you had the tenacity to stick this out.

 

Sadly, I am not able to help you myself, although I would like to. I know my limitations. My own understanding of the game engine is limited to very basic dialog and rudimentary scripting. I'm almost at the point where I can understand the corrections master coders make to my own work, but I consider that to be a triumph, because I've always been computer illiterate and never even played BG until spring of this year.

 

There are places you can go for help, should you decide to tackle it yourself.

 

This forum has excellent tutorials. I do not know if kit creation is covered, because I've never needed to look. I would check here, but I would also check at just about every forum out there to see if they have tutorials that make sense to you.

 

Do not be afraid to use the forum search engine! Surely someone has wanted to make a kit before and has received help. Your questions might already be answered, with the answers just sitting there, waiting for you to find them.

 

Good luck to you! I'll be watching for progress reports!

[Domi]

In the Tutorial section, Cam has his classic Kit Creation Tutorial that takes a person through proper Kit creation process step by step. It takes attention to details, but it's relatively easy.

 

IIRC though you can't change weapon restrictions, so just use the whatever bards kit that is closest to your idea, etc.

 

Take a look at Song and SIlence coding - it added a few bard's kits already, so you can use it as a template.

[Guest Guest]

Is it possible to create unlimited/day spell at all?

I can only create a spell that remove and add itself when cast, along with its other effects, but if it happen to failure, it cannot be cast again until rest.

[berelinde]

Spell, no. Special ability, maybe.

[Guest Guest]

Made innate spell remove and restore itself. With casting speed 0, it won’t be easy to failure them, but it’s quite a power.

Like original poster, trying to make a Warlock. Had to split eldrich blast in those crazy innate spells and weapon item which change on some level ups, for touch attacks. Almost done, but creating new HLA table is beyond me.

[Guest braden]

i'm extremely sick of the 'balancing' issue with kits. he's a WARLOCK. he gets unlimited eldritch blasts, and yes, wears light to medium armor (hide and leather) with no penalty because its not arcane magic. even at extremely high levels like 20, they still only have a handful of spells (like 6 or 7), compared to a mage that would have like 60 or 70. the idea of a warlock is to combine eldritch power with fighting ability. he is not a 'spellcaster'. eldritch blasts aid combat by dealing elemental damage or scaled attacks like poison or acid or hampering affects like fear or confusion.

 

a lot of suggestions of 'balance' in this discussion have been ridiculous. a warlock won't get the thac0 of a fighter, sure, but not of a damn mage. i repeat, a warlock is not a 'spellcaster'. eldritch blasts shouldn't have to-hit rolls either, its not like ghoul touch or something. save vs. spell or save vs. poison or something would be fine, but don't totally dilute such a unique class for the sake of a perverted idea of what 'balance' is. eliminating unique parts of classes like i've seen all over the place on forums makes all the classes generic with some superficial differences like what it says on the character sheet. the warlock as described even in NWN2 is "balanced" and doesn't need watering down. he's no match for a mage in casting, no match for a fighter in melee, no match for a bard in versatility, but his combined strengths make for a very interesting class. leave it alone. the only thing that should be in debate is how to make eldritch blasts part of BG2 considering theres nothing similar to it in BG2, and what to do with the notion of unlimited eldritch blasts. making the kit workable, not how to smear the uniqueness from it so it 'fits' or whatever.

[berelinde]

If you want to make it that easy to beat the game, just enable cheats and hit ctrl-y.

 

What you describe is called powergaming. It is not to be emulated. Sure, it's kind of fun to blast through everything without even having to think about strategy, but it's even more fun to beat an equal. That's why balanced classes and kits are appealing. As a recovering powergamer, I know this well.

 

Your argument that it's a warlock and therefore *supposed* to be powerful is missing the point. Paladins are supposed to be powerful, too, as are many other classes. Back in the days of PnP, where stat requirements meant that you actually had to get lucky to play a particular class, that made sense. Sure, give a warlock superpowers! After all, hardly anyone is going to qualify, so it won't unblance anything, and the DM can always increase the challenge level of the game. But when you've got a CRPG, minimum stat requirements ensure that you meet the requirements. The internal die roller only displays numbers that do. And the challenges are already based on an average party.

 

Creating something over the top, whether it be a warlock as described in post by the last poster, or a weapon with a +6 enchantment, or a ring that regenerates 5 hp per round, comes across as compensation.

 

So, what happens when you do give in to powergaming? After all, it is rather satisfying at first. Not much, really. It's your computer. Play the way you want. But that game that you liked so much gets boring real fast when all your are doing is clicking the mouse a few times to get through.

 

Your post reminds me of one of the guys in my PnP gaming group. He came up with this kit that was kind of like a kensai, but it allowed unlimited armor selection, and some insane ability progression table for level advancement. He came to the table with a pre-rolled character with 3 18s and everything else over 13. I kind of liked it, because it meant that the DM stopped picking on Gavin for a while, but I don't know how anybody else felt. The DM just smiled and said that such a rare character as this would have to have only the finest weapons masters to train, and would not be able to progress to second level until he did. So, everyone else was walking around with 12th level whatevers and he was walking around with a first level character, a bazillion xp, and no one to train him. He never did get the hint, but he replaced the character with a regular fighter after a while.

[Guest Guest]

What you describe is called powergaming.

Let’s see... That Warlock I’m making, has initial 1d6 damage, and +1d6 for each 4 levels... up to 10d6 at level 36. And many invocations allow spell resistance and a saving throw. His ranged thac0 is quite good; it is ranged touch after all, not a bow.

Now, let’s compare this to archer... +3 Bow, 1d6+1 Arrow, +6 damage from “archery”, 4 attacks. Damage is something like 44-64/round...

44-66 >= 10d6 and archer can do much more with Whirlwind attack, but warlock got some nasty effects on his spells. So if you speak of damage, warlock is not that unbalanced.

[berelinde]

You can take away the archer's +3 bow and magic arrows. Not so the eldritch blast.

 

Whirlwind attack is an HLA. I am certain that the warlock will have something to compare.

 

If you gave the archer the ability to cast spells, would you call that fair?

 

Ranged touch? You've got to be kidding. If you told me the character hurls balls of fire like baseballs, I'd say OK, better have good aim. 10d6 as a ranged touch attack? And one that can be repeated once per round indefinitely?

 

This is not the first time warlocks have been discussed. It won't be the last.

 

I am sure there are people who will play the class you envision. They'll play for a while, get bored, and look for ways to increase the challenge. Or they may decide to go try something else. Or, they may go to the other extreme.

[Guest Guest]

Ahh... c’mon who can take away PC’s bow in BG2 ?

 

Whirlwind is HLA, but so is 10d6 damage... at level 20 it will be 6d6, and any fighter kit will be doing much more.

 

And archers do cast spells... just not infinite.

 

I made eldritch blast an item, like throwing axe that return to wielder and a spell that replace them on some level ups, so it’s like ranged attack (perhaps not a touch). And it needs a roll to hit, even if it’s a Fireball. Those infinite innate spells I made are Devil Sight and Devour Magic, and none of them do damage.

[berelinde]

I think it's pretty clear that we aren't going to agree on this. We've both stated our arguments, but it ultimately comes down to a question of playing style.

 

Few people are objective enough to assess their own work in terms of quality or challenge. When you design a mod, you want it to be the bestest mod of its kind. When you design a kit, ditto. It's human nature. This means that you are going to do everything you can to make it stand out. We can all think of mod NPCs that tried too hard to be unique and ended up as Mary Sues/Gary Stus. The same can be said of some kit mods or item mods, or tactical mods.

 

Let me offer an illustration. I spent part of my weekend working out the combat AI of a quest. I think it's going to be about right for a party of the pc and 4-5 balanced NPCs of 3rd-4th level and average ability scores. Can I judge this without playtesting it? Hells, no! Can I assess the challenge of it myself, at all? Probably not. I'm hoping that beta testing will refine it further.

 

The same would apply to the warlock kit. Run the warlock against a selection of other kits/classes whom you think have comparable abilities and see who wins. Best to let a disinterested 3rd party handle that. Your kit/class would be balanced if it won about half the time and lost about half the time.