THAC0 and saves

[Miloch]

We're looking at table 53, right?

That one looks ok, but I was looking at table 25 (Rogue Experience Levels).

 

Also I just noticed after table 53 there is table 39 "Creature THAC0." This is pretty useful as a generic CRE modding reference, but it says "Vampires use monster thac0." I don't see a monster THAC0 table here - is it in the DMG or something?

[Guest erik]

I'd guess that the disputed part is "what happens to thaco and saves after level 20". PHB and DMG doesn't answer that... and I suspect that there are various references in various supplements to that question.

 

The answer to that seems to be they go negative (there's even a specific reference to Baldur's Gate in this post).

 

The references for THAC0 contradict each other.

 

* 2nd edition Player's Handbook has the canonical table up to level 20. No dispute there. It goes on to say:

 

"For a character higher than 20th level, find the Improvement Rate in Table 54."

 

Priest: 2 per 3 levels

Rogue: 1 per 2 levels

Warrior: 1 per level

Wizard: 1 per 3 levels

 

* High Level Campaigns, a rather later 2nd ed. reference, caps THAC0 at the levels they are when you reach level 20. See p. 144.

 

(I.E. Priest 8, Rogue 11, Warrior 1, Wizard 14)

 

Isn't it about time you registered, erik?

 

Pah. Not tonight, anyway.

[Guest erik]

...while the even more specific Forgotten Realms reference Faiths And Avatars continue just like the Player's Handbook suggests, but caps lowest possible THAC0 at -10. For warriors, that means at level 30.

[BigRob]

We're looking at table 53, right?

That one looks ok, but I was looking at table 25 (Rogue Experience Levels).

 

Yeah, Table 25 is actually wrong. In fact, I've never seen that particular table in any AD&D book, so it may have been extended (incorrectly!) from the experience table in the standard PHB.

 

 

Also I just noticed after table 53 there is table 39 "Creature THAC0." This is pretty useful as a generic CRE modding reference, but it says "Vampires use monster thac0." I don't see a monster THAC0 table here - is it in the DMG or something?

Hmm, I don't recall a "Monster" THAC0 chart, only one for creatures. I can go look for it tonight. It might be a misprint though, as Vampires are allowed to keep class levels and may get THAC0 based on that, rather than their hit dice.

 

 

 

On another note, all the saving throws on the combined save table in there (Table 60) are accurate.

[Miloch]

...while the even more specific Forgotten Realms reference Faiths And Avatars continue just like the Player's Handbook suggests, but caps lowest possible THAC0 at -10. For warriors, that means at level 30.

Level 31 actually I think. That would be true to the original BG1 table. I wonder why they saw the need to change this in BG2, and why the Ease-of-Use and BG2 Tweak Pack didn't restore the tables to what they should have been? (They did everything else except limited it to zero rather than go negative.)

 

Maybe this is a possible Tweak Pack addition. I could see the options to:

1) Retain original BG2 THAC0 tables

2) Use original "un-nerfed" tables (Blucher)

3) Use true BG1/2nd Edition tables

[Luiz]

That sounds like a good idea.

 

It annoyed me (as a player, though not necessarily as a rules purist) that the un-nerfed Blucher tables came packaged with grandmastery changes and new spell tables so I made them separately available in my own small mod pack.

[CamDawg]

I'll be honest here: I really haven't a clue as to the source for the original un-nered tables, I simply updated them to not overwrite the existing changes. Some of these changes are also duplicated in Fixpack and Baldurdash (i.e. the mage/rogue saves) because they're actual bugs and not just a cutoff of the table at level 20.