Requests for improved compatibility / consolidation ...

[Kulyok]

And there're Zyraen's cool tweaks(the statue of riddles), too.

[CamDawg]

First, the easy stuff. I've added the happy neutrals option to the Happy Patch, so now you'll get this option:

 

Install [Happy Patch (Party NPCs do not fight or complain

about reputation)]

1. Do Not Add Neutral Character Happy Comments
   
2. Add Neutral Character Happy Comments (Luiz)
   

Sabre's low-rep store discount is now...

 

Install [Change Effect of Reputation on Store Prices]

1. Low Reputation Store Discount (Sabre)
   
2. Reputation Has No Effect, Stores Price Fixed at 100% (Luiz)
   
3. Reputation Has No Effect, Stores Price Fixed at 80% (Luiz)
   
4. Reputation Has No Effect, Stores Price Fixed at 60% (Luiz)
   

And correct, the un-nerfed component is a mess. It consists of

• Save fixes
  
• THAC0 table changes
  
• Proficiency bonus changes (aka grandmastery fix)
  
• Spell progression tables (sorcerer, mage, druid, priest, bard)
  
• Mage and cleric HLA table additions (scribe scrolls, alchemy for both)
  

What I'm proposing is going to be fairly dramatic, because there's a lot of clean-up and redundancy inherent between this and a bunch of other components. Save fixes are easy--these fixes are present in both Fixpack and Baldurdash, so there's no need to include them in tweaks. The grandmastery fix in un-nerfed is just slightly different than the existing Schumacher grandmastery fix--the former grants +5 damage at high mastery (four pips), the latter +4, and are otherwise identical. I'd like to combine the rest with a bunch of the other tweaks to give the user more options here, and hopefully be a little more clear what's being done:

 

Install Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table?

1. Capped, Best THAC0 is Zero (Blucher)
   
2. No Cap, THAC0 Can Improve Beyond Zero (Miloch)
   

Install Un-Nerfed Sorcerer Spell Progression Table (Blucher)?

 

Alter Bard Spell Progression Table?

1. Un-nerfed (Blucher)
   
2. Use PnP Table
   

Alter Mage Spell Progression Table?

1. Un-nerfed (Blucher) (nb: this would include the mage HLA changes)
   
2. Use PnP Table
   

Alter Cleric Spell Progression Table?

1. Un-nerfed
   
2. Use PnP Table (nb:this would include the cleric HLA changes)
   

Alter Druid Spell Progression Table?

1. Un-nerfed (Blucher)
   
2. Use PnP Table
   
3. Use Clerical Spell Progression: Normal
   
4. Use Clerical Spell Progression: Un-nerfed (Blucher)
   
5. Use Clerical Spell Progression: PnP
   

[Miloch]

Sounds logical. I would recommend altering the THAC0 description to the following:

Install Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table?

1. Capped, Best THAC0 is Zero (Blucher)
   
2. Capped, Best THAC0 is -10 (PnP/BG1 table)
   

The description of the latter option is probably more helpful to those making a choice than putting my name by it.

[CamDawg]

As for the discussion of the various mergers, well... ugh. Most of the advantages of a merger have been covered, so let me play devil's advocate a bit.

 

BG2 Tweaks is already ginourmous and is completely non-trivial to install. Here's a fun piece of trivia: there are over 100 trillion trillion (yes, that's 10^26) unique combinations of Tweaks components for your average ToB game. When it's reached the point where the authors are annoyed by having to wade through all the options, well... It seems like combining them into a monolithic pack would be easier, but I really think it's a net loss for players.

 

Consider someone who just wants to play with a few components from, say, Sim or the bigg's tweak pack and don't have any interest in BG2 Tweaks. (I know that's hard to believe, but stay with me. ) We've just changed their install process from about 10 yes/no prompts to about 100 prompts, not all of them necessarily yes/no. Even if we take advantage of WeiDU's GROUP features, we've just made install more difficult and annoying for a lot of players. Even folks who use BG2 Tweaks and not any other packs will have their install time increase--not the WeiDU crunching, but the time they need to sit there and say yes/no. I don't think this drawback outweighs the perceived benefits of a single Tweak package.

 

I've long, long wanted to pare down Tweaks. The merge between EoU, G3 & Tutu was a move to try and make the package a bit more manageable (for me; I don't think this necessarily made much difference to the players other than a new release and bug fixes). The problem is that there's not really a sensible way to do it, and glomming on a bunch of new mods would simply exacerbate this. If the fabled WeiDU GUI frontend were to get finished, this kind of a merger would be a much more viable option--the user would simply check a bunch of boxes upfront and then let it run unattended, or even save their component selections for a different install or whatever.

 

I will say that I love the idea of getting a few more helping hands on board or a 'team' approach. A lot of Tweaks components are already contributed by others and I really think this would just be a formalization of the existing relationships. But unless we do the merges (which, above, I don't think is a good idea) I don't think there's much difference this would make atm.

[Miloch]

[Cam's entire post]

Details. Let's not let such trivial things bog us down.

 

But seriously, I am still in favour of a consolidation. I just think it needs to be planned out logically. Having a choice between Tweak packs by G3, Ding0, bigg, pro5, igi etc. ad nauseum is less intelligible to the average end user not familiar with the relative benefits of said authors than reorganising the tweaks by platforms or features.

 

Option #1 - segregate tweaks by platform

1. BG Core Tweaks (common to BG2, Tutu and BGT)

2. BG1 Tweaks (contains any specific BG1, Tutu or BGT tweaks)

3. BG2 Tweaks (guess )

 

Option #2 - segregate tweaks by feature

1. Cosmetic Tweaks

2. Content Tweaks

3. Rule Changes

4. Convenience Tweaks

5. NPC Tweaks

 

Option 2 is of course how the tweaks are already grouped, according to the website. Either one would be more manageable, but I'd lean toward option #1 as being a tad more user-friendly. You know at least which game you want to tweak (I hope) if nothing else. This may be reverse logic, since Tutu Tweaks were consolidated in the first place, but in retrospect it might be better to have them separate (and you could farm out maintenance to the BG1 Fixpack team ). I would argue for this approach though even if you don't decide to further merge fixpacks together, due to the size of Tweaks as it is.

 

[P.S.: Nice portrait change BTW - Futurama fan, eh? ]

 

Edit: Oh, there was another usability feature I wanted to suggest. You could have a 'template' or three of potential installs (e.g. Recommended "Tweaks according to CamDawg," Minimal, Core Rules etc.). This would be in the readme as to what exactly you get for each one. You could just pick an option and go grab a beer or pizza or whatever while the relevant Tweaks would install away. The GUI with check boxes would be great, but this might be the next best thing.

[CamDawg]

Option #1 - segregate tweaks by platform

1. BG Core Tweaks (common to BG2, Tutu and BGT)

2. BG1 Tweaks (contains any specific BG1, Tutu or BGT tweaks)

3. BG2 Tweaks (guess )

Tweaks that won't work on your install are already automatically skipped--I don't think it can get much easier than that.

 

Edit: Oh, there was another usability feature I wanted to suggest. You could have a 'template' or three of potential installs (e.g. Recommended "Tweaks according to CamDawg," Minimal, Core Rules etc.). This would be in the readme as to what exactly you get for each one. You could just pick an option and go grab a beer or pizza or whatever while the relevant Tweaks would install away. The GUI with check boxes would be great, but this might be the next best thing.

How would this be done, though? It's not something we can do natively in WeiDU, so it would probably have to be a collection of shell scripts that pass along a boatload of command-line parameters. I don't think that'd make it much easier. And you'd still have to face the 100-odd options if you wanted to change, add, or subtract options to one of these preset packages.

[Kulyok]

Tweaks that won't work on your install are already automatically skipped--I don't think it can get much easier than that.

 

Not all of them are - "Romance bugfixes" shows on my TUTU install, for example, while it really shouldn't.

[CamDawg]

Well, I didn't say it was bug-free.

[Miloch]

Tweaks that won't work on your install are already automatically skipped--I don't think it can get much easier than that.

I was talking about having entirely separate mods. You said you wanted to 'pare it down' - this would at least allow you to spin off the Tutu stuff to those who wanted to maintain that. I should point out that by the time we're done with our BG1 Fixpack, we'll have a boatload more tweaks. Unless you want to stuff them in the Fixpack .

Edit: Oh, there was another usability feature I wanted to suggest. You could have a 'template' or three of potential installs (e.g. Recommended "Tweaks according to CamDawg," Minimal, Core Rules etc.)...

How would this be done, though? It's not something we can do natively in WeiDU, so it would probably have to be a collection of shell scripts that pass along a boatload of command-line parameters. I don't think that'd make it much easier. And you'd still have to face the 100-odd options if you wanted to change, add, or subtract options to one of these preset packages.

Well if you can't think of a way, I sure can't. I was hoping maybe something fancy could be done with groups, dummy files and REQUIRE_COMPONENT or something. I suppose you *could* deliver alternate TP2s with the mod, though that'd be a maintenance nightmare, unless you had a sophisticated version management system.

 

So when's this WeiGUI thing coming out?

[the bigg]

It's not something we can do natively in WeiDU[...]

Move all component code into INCLUDEd files. After that,

 

BEGIN ~Cam's template~
DESIGNATED -1000
FORBID_FILE ~override/g3tweaks-uses-template~ "Can't install more than one template at a time, sorry."
COPY_EXISTING ~sw1h01.itm~ ~override/g3tweaks-uses-template~
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component100.tpa~
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component130.tpa~
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component250.tpa~

BEGIN ~Sim's template~
DESIGNATED -1100
FORBID_FILE ~override/g3tweaks-uses-template~ "Can't install more than one template at a time, sorry."
COPY_EXISTING ~sw1h01.itm~ ~override/g3tweaks-uses-template~
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component100.tpa~
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component300.tpa~
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component500.tpa~

BEGIN ~component 100~
BLAH_BLAH
FORBID_FILE ~override/g3tweaks-uses-template~ "Can't install more than one template at a time, sorry."
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component100.tpa~

BEGIN ~component 200~
BLAH_BLAH
FORBID_FILE ~override/g3tweaks-uses-template~ "Can't install more than one template at a time, sorry."
INCLUDE ~g3_tweaks/includes/component200.tpa~

 

etc., ad nauseam.

 

As for WeiGUI: next term I'm learning SQL, after which I'll be better suited for writing WeiDB, which is a necessary step to a full-featured WeiGUI.

[Luiz]

Cam, you shouldn't go changing your avatar out of the blue. It's like there's a whole new guy in charge.

 

Anyway, agree with pretty much everything written in your megaposts back on page 2. Be interesting to see how further consolidation pans out. I think that overwhelming the user with choices is slightly less of a problem than you may perceive, so long as everything is logically laid out as the exe runs, and the documentation is comprehensive ...

 

... which won't be a problem, right?

 

Cheers,

Luiz - who rarely starts threads that become this productive.

[CamDawg]

Cam, you shouldn't go changing your avatar out of the blue. It's like there's a whole new guy in charge.

It's such a great Zapp picture, I couldn't resist.

 

I think that overwhelming the user with choices is slightly less of a problem than you may perceive

Well, I know it annoys the crap outta me.

[Luiz]

Fair enough.

 

On second thoughts, should the Happy Neutrals be dependent on installation of Happy Party? (Am I reading that correctly?)

 

One of the 100 trillion plus possibilities is those who might not want inclusion a tiny "auditory buff" to be dependent on a more fundamental change in the way differently aligned NPCs interact (or are prohibited from interacting).

 

Both the Happy Neutrals and the Happy Party components happen to tweak different parts of the same .2DA file, but they've not related in any gameplay manner, so shouldn't they be separate/independent?

[Salk]

Consider someone who just wants to play with a few components from, say, Sim or the bigg's tweak pack and don't have any interest in BG2 Tweaks. (I know that's hard to believe, but stay with me. ) We've just changed their install process from about 10 yes/no prompts to about 100 prompts, not all of them necessarily yes/no. Even if we take advantage of WeiDU's GROUP features, we've just made install more difficult and annoying for a lot of players. Even folks who use BG2 Tweaks and not any other packs will have their install time increase--not the WeiDU crunching, but the time they need to sit there and say yes/no. I don't think this drawback outweighs the perceived benefits of a single Tweak package.

 

I think that the annoyance of having a long sequence of installation options is largely outweighed by having a single, complete Tweak package, good for all seasons and for all tastes.

 

Personally, I don't mind going through many options as it means highest customizations. And people use tweaks just because they want to customize their own game. So the bigger the offer, the better!

 

Don't let that discourage you, Cam!

[zodden]

Consider someone who just wants to play with a few components from, say, Sim or the bigg's tweak pack and don't have any interest in BG2 Tweaks. (I know that's hard to believe, but stay with me. ) We've just changed their install process from about 10 yes/no prompts to about 100 prompts, not all of them necessarily yes/no. Even if we take advantage of WeiDU's GROUP features, we've just made install more difficult and annoying for a lot of players. Even folks who use BG2 Tweaks and not any other packs will have their install time increase--not the WeiDU crunching, but the time they need to sit there and say yes/no. I don't think this drawback outweighs the perceived benefits of a single Tweak package.

 

I think that the annoyance of having a long sequence of installation options is largely outweighed by having a single, complete Tweak package, good for all seasons and for all tastes.

 

Personally, I don't mind going through many options as it means highest customizations. And people use tweaks just because they want to customize their own game. So the bigger the offer, the better!

 

Don't let that discourage you, Cam!

 

 

I agree 100% with that. First off if a person is going to go out and actually seek out a tweak pack to mod their game then they should have the patience to read the documentation and also have the patience to hit yes or no 100 times if needed. Its not like it has to be done every day.

 

Its far easier then to have each tweak pack's readme open during an install so I can do any workarounds or get the install order right and such. If they were merged into one big pack it would make life easier on the end user, not harder. Also it would make it easier on you guys in the sense you would all be working on the same project so compatability issues would get much easier to get around and updates and fixes would come more frequently. You guys could choose what you want in the fixpack and then the mega tweak pack and then go from there. I am sure all of us would greatly benefit from your works.

 

I think you guys should think about adding refinements to the list so it works better with all the G3 kit packs at the very least, and I don't know if this was mentioned before but ScS would also make a fine addition for any player who is going the BG1 route. Just let it detect a BG1 install and let it go from there.

 

For most end users this would make life easier, for people doing mega installs it would dreamy