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Guest frabjous

Unnerfed/True grandmastery: broken?

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Guest frabjous

First, I know this isn't originally a G3-made component, but is borrowed from Ease-of-Use, and ultimately from baldurdash... however, they don't have (active) forums, so I thought I'd ask here.

 

I should also say from the outset that I am using v2 of the Tweak Pack. I know the "unnerfed grandmastery" tweak has been unbundled from the other components of the "Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table, Saving Throws, Grand-Mastery, etc." package, but I didn't see anything in the more recent version notes to suggest that how it works has changed.

 

Anyway: here's the issue. My testing seems to indicate that the grandmastery tweak provides a full extra attack per round for attaining grandmastery over mastery/specialization, for a total bonus 1.5 attacks per round, whereas I think it is supposed to provide only an extra half attack per round over mastery (for a total bonus of 1 attack per round with specialization).

 

Anyway, here's the information I got from testing.

 

Using the Baldur's gate trilogy mod (which starts you at level 1), I made a first level fighter, and gave her **** in shortbows. This gave her 2.5 attacks per round with a normal shortbow. I cheated in the Tuigan bow, and with that she had 3.5 attacks her round. I then cheated her up to level 5, and put her new proficiency point in shortbows, so she had grandmastery. She then jumped all the way up to 4.5 attacks per round. I then cheated her to level 7, when she went up again to 5 attacks per round. However, I think she should have only had 4 attacks per round at level 5, and 4.5 attacks per round at level 7.

 

I did the same with a 1st level fighter with **** in crossbows. I cheated in the Light Crossbow of Speed. He had 2.5 attacks with it at level, 3.5 attacks at level 5 with grandmastery, and 4 attacks at level 7 with grandmastery. I think that should only be 3 and 3.5 respectively.

 

Finally, I tested it with a 1st level fighter wielding an ordinary longsword. I started with **** in longsword: I had 1.5 attacks per round at level 1, 2.5 attacks per round at level 5 with grandmastery, and 3 attacks per round at level 7. Again, I think I should only have had 2 attacks with grandmastery at level 5, and 2.5 at level 7.

 

I may have made a mistake in my calculations somewhere, or perhaps some other mod is causing a problem. (I have only the baldurdash fixes, BGT and some components of the Tweakpack installed, however.)

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It's the BG rules (which are, I believe, the P&P rules), which grant an extra 1/2 attack at 2-4 pips and an extra 3/2 attacks at 5 pips. So yes, going from 4 to 5 pips is worth one extra full attack. The extra 1/2 attack at level 7 is a fighter's natural progression of attacks, i.e. you'll get that regardless of proficiency or weapon wielded.

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Guest frabjous

So that's how it's supposed to be?

 

If so, I guess I was mislead by the Tweakpack readme, which says this:

 

True Grand Mastery (Schumacher, Weimer)

This is the standard Baldurdash / TeamBG "un-nerfed" grand mastery patch. It gives you the extra half-attack and the to-hit and damage bonus you had in standard BG and IWD.

 

This led me to believe that you're only supposed to get an extra half attack from grandmastery. Is it the readme that should be changed then?

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Whoops! Yes, the readme is incorrect here--I copied-and-pasted from Ease-of-Use, but it looks like I should have used the original description from BD:

 

In IWD, BG1 and AD&D guidelines, going from 4 to 5 proficiency points in a weapon reduces THAC0 by 1, adds 1 to damage rolls, and gives an extra attack per round to 5/2. In BG2, it only adds one to damage. Rather takes the "Grand" out of "Grandmastery" I think. Install this patch to restore Grandmastery to what it was.

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Guest frabjous

Good to know -- thanks for the help!

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I was thinking too that the full extra attack was a mistake but if it isn't so i continue to think that half-attack bonus would be less unbalanced keeping in mind that clerics and thieves are unfortunately restricted to only 1 attack per round...

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It's the BG rules (which are, I believe, the P&P rules), which grant an extra 1/2 attack at 2-4 pips and an extra 3/2 attacks at 5 pips.

 

First of all, sorry for the thread necromancy, but I have some further questions on this subject. I hope there's still someone around to answer them.

 

Are you certain that's the way in BG1? (and PnP?). As you can't get Grand Mastery in BG1 without removing the XP cap, I never achieved GM there, but both the BG1 and IWD manuals state that GM gives you an extra half attack, not a full attack.

 

I don't know how it was in 2nd Ed. PnP, but given that Bioware wasn't afraid to stray from PnP in such matters as spells per level and the like, that alone isn't a fully convincing argument. If BG1 GM did give a full attack in game, that might just as well have been an oversight.

 

In any case, regardless of the underlying truths, it should be possible to include the option of an intermediate 'BG1 manual-style' Grand Mastery fix. I'm not alone in thinking that the current 'True GM' is overpowered, while the vanilla BG2 GM is underpowered. An in-between option would be much appreciated by me and many others.

So, the question is, is there anyone willing and able to update the tweakpack for that?

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I've done a Grandmastery revised table for my upcoming Kit Revisions, if you like it I guess I can make it temporarily available here or at one of "my" forums at G3. Installing it would be as simple as putting the two files into the main override folder. :)

 

  Revised Grandmastery
Stars +Hit +Dmg APR Speed
1	 0	 0	1	-0
2	 1	 2	1	-0
3	 2	 2   3/2   -0
4	 2	 4   3/2   -1
5	 3	 4	2	-2

Edited by Demivrgvs

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Guest amanasleep
I've done a Grandmastery revised table for my upcoming Kit Revisions, if you like it I guess I can make it temporarily available here or at one of "my" forums at G3. Installing it would be as simple as putting the two files into the main override folder. :)

 

  Revised Grandmastery
Stars +Hit +Dmg APR Speed
1	 0	 0	1	-0
2	 1	 2	1	-0
3	 2	 2   3/2   -0
4	 2	 4   3/2   -1
5	 3	 4	2	-2

 

I like that table. Much more balanced than PnP 2E, since I have always considered Specialization to be overpowered. In this table you get something pretty decent at every level. It does penalize Rangers and Paladins a bit though. I might suggest allowing them to get the third pip to compensate.

 

BTW In 2E the 5th pip in GM gives only +1/2 apr, not +1 apr. If it is the BG2 engine doing this it's a mistake.

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BTW In 2E the 5th pip in GM gives only +1/2 apr, not +1 apr. If it is the BG2 engine doing this it's a mistake.
My table gives only +1/2 apr, but more importantly for balance reasons than for matching PnP.

 

It does penalize Rangers and Paladins a bit though. I might suggest allowing them to get the third pip to compensate.
It's actually intended. Paladins, but most noticeably paladin's kits, are already much more powerful than a plain fighter. Rangers, except Stalker and Archer kits are a little underpowered instead (and the latter won't be penalized by this table), but the table is only one piece of the puzzle, as it should be included in a more extended revision of all classes.

 

Anyway, even as stand alone tweak I think it should be more balanced than True Grand Mastery, and much better than vanilla's one, while it offers a more "linear" progression of both tables (e.g. vanilla's 5th point gave pratically nothing, True Mastery 5th point gives too much imo).

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