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About Zandilar

  1. 13/4/05 Heya, I have some bad news, unfortunately. The momentum for this project has left me, and unfortunately that means I won't be working on it at the moment. This is not to say that I won't get back to it eventually. In the meantime, if anyone is interested in writing for this project, please feel free to contact Grim Squeaker and myself, and we'll see how we can get the Viconia Romance back on track. I'm sorry about this. Thank you all for your support for this project. Zandilar.
  2. Heya, Anomen is going to be the main romance conflict (he gets to interject at similar points in the romance that Aerie or Jaheira would have in the male romance - I do have a secret second interjector, which I am not going to say anything about for now)... Knowing Viconia, she'll likely put him in his place quickly... but I've also had at least one humorous thought about it which is probably not a good idea.
  3. Heya, Thank you indeed for pointing out to me where I was being blind, and please accept my apologies. I now understand what you were getting at. Having thoroughly read through Ed's reply to my questions, I can now say that yes there are a few people who will make disapproving noises (Valygar (maybe), Nalia, Mazzy, Keldorn, Anomen) for a variety of reasons (mostly do to with the fact that all of those people have nobility and lineage as common themes). I don't think they will be overly strong, or particularly insulting, but there will be bias shown.
  4. Heya, That's semantics. Homophobia, sexual prejudice, heterosexism... Whatever. The implication of your question was that you thought that Keldorn and Mazzy for some gods only known reason would be prejudiced about the relationship mostly because it was homosexual in nature, not because of the fact that Viconia is a) a drow, b) is evil, and c) is a priestess of Shar. I think those three reasons would be slightly more important to Mazzy and Keldorn than the fact that the two people in the relationship are both female. (Mind you, there will be disapproval, even if it's only a friendship because Viconia is a NE drow priestess of Shar!!) If I seem to be reacting a touch harshly about this, well basically I locked the other thread because I didn't want to have to go through all this again. If my research into the Realms reveals wider spread homophobia than I feel there is, then yes there will be homophobic reactions. (Ed's already answered the question on general attitudes for me, I have linked it before (if you want to see it again, it's linked in my sig now - and when I get more information, I'll link it in my sig as well)... I have also asked for further clarification from him - but he's a busy man and I don't expect to get an answer any time soon) So, for the last time... This is just as much a dead equine as proof of Viconia's sexuality. Please, just drop this. Edit: Amazingly enough, I checked the Candlekeep forum and what did I spy but a rather long answer from Ed Greenwood. You can find it on this page, in a post dated 10th September 2004, conveyed by the lovely Hooded One. It covers a lot of ground, and means I need to think about how certain characters will react to the relationship.)
  5. Heya, Grim pretty much answered all your questions, but I thought I might hop in on questions 2, 3 and 4 with my own point of view. If it were entirely up to me, I'd slow it right down and make parts of it occur in SoA. I'm certainly planning to have a couple of NPCs react to the growing friendship/relationship. Anomen is one of them. I probably should write Viconia interjections into Anomen's romance as well, but I'll have to see how I go. Keldorn's bias against Viconia is merely to do with his hatred of Drow, and so yes he will have negative things to say about the relationship - but it will be motivated by "don't you see this black hearted creature is trying to corrupt you?!" (When the PC is actually the initiator of the relationship ) If it wasn't Viconia, if it was say... Jaheira... Then Keldorn probably wouldn't have a problem with the relationship. I am currently waiting on a more comprehensive answer on homosexuality in the Realms from Ed Greenwood (he's a very busy man, and we're lucky there are people who will take questions to him, and that he does take time out to answer them)... Once I get that I'll be able to say which NPCs, if any, will have a homophobic stand. But there are certain characters who will have something to say about the relationship... Anomen being the primary one. I would really rather not include homophobia at all, but will do so if that will accurately portray the Realms.
  6. Heya, I just locked the Debate thread because I have decided that no further discussion regarding Viconia's sexuality will be entered into. I've said all I can say on the matter, both in public posts and in PMs. I am not censoring anyone from their point of view, but the issue of proof or lack of proof regarding Viconia's sexuality is really a very dead equine, which I have no desire to beat any furhter. This thread is for more general discussion. @BobTokyo: I decided that this will be Viconia's first close relationship with a woman, friendship or romance.
  7. Heh. I would definitely have to agree with that. Gay Conversion Ministries aparently have a very low success rate, and it would be my guess that they cause more problems than they supposedly solve. The ones it "works" for are probably more likely to be bisexual anyway. (Yes, that's my opinion - but I believe there's actually research out there to support that idea, but I am not going to scour the 'net for it at the moment.) So why would a gay man or lesbian be any more successful "converting" a straight person (unless they were really bisexual to begin with)? They call it homophobia because it's an irrational fear. (And those who supposedly aren't fearful but are still prejudiced, the term is heterosexist.) One of the arguments that my "oppponents" have brought up is that "slashing" a character is showing disrespect for the original Author and for the character itself.
  8. Heya, Sorry, I just felt compelled to share my point of view. You can share your opinion, it's just better if you make new points instead of going over old ground. I am not sure what you're talking about as far as making major BG2 NPCs bisexual or homosexual. The major NPCs I know have or are being modded as bi/homosexual/lesbian: 1) Soluafein 2) Imoen (people's favorite target - but the fact of the matter is that Imoen is depicted as a lesbian in the "offiical" novels (*grits her teeth* gods I hate those novels) - so I hardly think that is an example of people "changing" her.) 3) Viconia If there's another Bioware character who has been made bi/gay/lesbian, then I don't know of them - please enlighten me if I'm missed one. I think there's been calls for Quitch to make his/her Imoen bisexual. I know some people have also asked the same for various incarnations Nalia. I have no idea what Quitch is going to do, nor do I have any idea what jcompton is going to do with Nalia. I don't know of any other major NPC who is getting the "is gay/bi/les" treatment at the moment. Unless you have Soluafein, Chloe, and Lord Mirabbo's Imoen Romance installed all at the same time (since my mod is still nowhere near finished), there still only ends up at the most 2 homosexual/bisexual characters in the entire game (not counting Charname)... How many NPCs, with or without speaking roles, are there in the entire BG2? I think having one or two NPCs of non-standard sexuality is fair. Lastly, there's always the "if you don't like it, don't play it" argument. Mods are here to provide people with options. You might not like or agree with all the options available - but none of these mods really have any bearing on the Official Game. Just because I make Viconia bisexual, doesn't mean that Viconia is bisexual in the Official Game. It's a little hard to ignore when it's thrown into my face day in day out. Seriously though, where would this world be without heterosexuality? Love is love is love is love.
  9. Heya, I am getting so tired of this debate. I never said it doesn't exist. I just said it was a lot rarer. Why is that so hard to accept? Ed Greenwood on Homosexuality in the Realms If you won't take it from me, then I can direct you to a place where you can ask him for yourself... Here on the Candlekeep Forums you can Ask Ed Greenwood questions. (I have a feeling you won't though.) There are plenty of people within organised religions that are quite accepting of homosexuality, Christians included. I believe God exists. I just don't believe he's my God. I believe in many gods. I even venerate one or two myself. I have an "each to his/her own" approach to spirituality. (And I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.) Just because it isn't common doesn't mean it's not natural. Natural is anything that occurs in nature. Animals, further, do not rape, nor do they murder. Both of those crimes requires a higher level of sapience (ie: a sense of wrong and right). Incest occurs in nature in order to strengthen useful genes - done to extreme the whole race dies out, so it does balance itself. It's part of the natural order. In the case of siamese twins - nature quickly takes care of that. Left to their own devices, without human interference, both the two headed calf and the siamese twin human babies would die. Sex is part of reproduction to be sure. But it's also an expression of intimacy, and a pleasurable one at that. This is why humans engage in sex when they don't mean to reproduce. So if you think homosexuals are bad and evil because they can't reproduce when they have sex, then you must think any human, no matter what their sexuality, is bad and evil when they have sex for pleasure, with no intention of reproducing. Would I be right? Because then we could also extrapolate that an infertile human is inherantly bad and evil because they can't reproduce, and they must be doubly so when they have sex for pleasure. But I will say this to you, homosexuals who don't insert tab a into slot b to make babies, don't pass their genes on. Nature balances it out. Heterosexuals and bisexuals engaging in heterosexual activities are the only ones to ensure the continuation of our species... and since homosexuals are such a small percentage - what is so terribly wrong with just letting them love who they wish to love without recrimination? It's not like we're having a population crisis - it's the reverse... there are too many humans in the world. I never applied the "heterosexual leaning bisexual" term to the vanilla unmodded Viconia. I said that was the Viconia as she stands in this mod. She woudn't care either way - since even if she was prejudiced against it (and vanilla Viconia seems to be ), she'd quickly find that people would laugh when she tried to use it as an insult. Jaheira wouldn't have a problem with it, since we have established that natural means anything that occurs in nature. So how can homosexuality be an affront to nature if it occurs in nature? You know, you can accept and tollerate homosexuality without being homosexual yourself. Acceptance and tollerance are not signs that you're gay. You don't have to worry about it so much. We aren't, as I have said before, out to rape or "convert" anyone.
  10. Heya, This is just a tad off topic... Don't know one way or another about that. Bioware got away with the Juhani romance because LucasArts is more tollerant. At least that was my reading of the situation. As for ToEE, well it's not Realms based so it can't go on my list of non-standard relationships in the Realms, but I suspect that the male-male romance thingy got through due to someone overlooking it (I never got that far in the game, I got bored to death of it pretty quickly - plus I never play male characters). This is odd, because in my experience people are usually much more tollerant of lesbianism than they are of male homosexuality. And while we're still on the issue of things that got past watchdogs - I could swear there was one dialogue where..... SPOILERS AHEAD FOR HOTU.... . . . . . . . . Why spolier space? Well I'm directly addressing an issue in the game, rather than dancing around and not naming names. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Where Aribeth and Nathyrra agreed to share the male PC. A polygamous relationship is one man, many wives - so this would fall under that, since Aribeth and Nathyrra were obviously not interested in each other. (I looked, but I can't find a darned thing in the conversations for that game *sigh*.)
  11. Heya, I don't know about you, but I Role Play as a form of escapism. Personally I'd love to escape to a world where my homosexuality was not an issue. It's hard to be homosexual in a heretosexist world, where I can watch my government going out of their way to stop me from having the same rights and privelages as heterosexual couples (eg.: marriage). If you or your DM wants heterosexism in their world (aka, homophobia and sexual prejudice), fine, include it. I'm not going to stop you. And yet you'd still like to see heterosexism in a fantasy world? This module is "what if" and is not supposed to make people think the standard Viconia as presented in vanilla BG2 is lesbian/bi. People have said they don't like this mod. They've even tried to plead with me not to make it. All I can say is tough. Don't like the mod? Don't download it. It won't hurt you by existing. There are plenty of instances in BG2 when I know the writers basically didn't do their research about the Realms, or didn't know something. After all, homosexuality has only actually seen indirect mentions in print in this edition (3rd Ed) of Dungeons and Dragons - and never to the same degree as Ed's comments on the Realms-L list. Here's something else you probably didn't know - anything Ed says about the Realms is concidered canon unless it's later contradicted by something in print (and the BG games don't count, by the way, since they aren't concidered canon anyway)... This was part of his original agreement with TSR when he sold The Forgotten Realms to them. I only got that answer out of Ed because I practically asked him directly. The people at Bioware wouldn't have known unless they asked, and so they took the easy path - just assumed Real World social mores applied - which was, IMHO, wrong of them. This isn't to mention the Family Friendly policies of TSR, WotC and Hasbro (WotC having the most lax of the three, as can be seen by the indirect mentions of homosexuality I talked about above.) To address Nalia specifically... There's one thing a female consort can't give Nalia (without magical intervention), do you know what that is? Of course she'd be worried about reproducing. However, since Nalia is a wizard, she'd be more than capable of taking care of that little.. ahem... issue (no pun intended) herself. But we know how well Bioware knows magic - since Aerie can't even use Regeneration to restore her wings (and the spell can do that, it restores lost limbs - like wings). Edwin/Edwina, ah now there's something I've never experienced in BG2 yet... Probably because the only evil NPC I like enough to have in my party is Viconia (who is more True Neutral than Neutral Evil, and is a lousy priestess - I don't know why Shar continues to grant her spells at times!). First off, Edwin/Edwina demonstrates how a powerful wizard like Nalia (is at the end of ToB) could easily solve her issue issue. (Polymorph self, polymorph other, limited wish, wish... the list goes on...) Once again, part of the Edwin/Edwina problem stems from trying to apply Real World morals to a fantasy world. But yes I see what you mean about the men flirting with Edwina when they know full well that Edwina is really Edwin. It could just be cruel play to humiliate Edwin more than he feels he already is (sexist git (Edwin, not you! )). You know, they actually brought Mirriam out to Australia and stuck her in the Australian Big Brother house. I'm not really sure how that went, as I don't really follow Big Brother... But I still think that show, There's Something About Mirriam was a cruel joke. It serves no one, it doesn't further the cause of transexuals one iota. It just reinforces old prejudices. I'd be shocked that it was ever made if I wasn't so jaded about humanity. (Money makes the world go round.) Have you ever stopped to think that some of us might be a little uncomfortable around a man and a woman kissing? (Personally, I'm not.) The thing is, this is a heterosexual world. From birth we are all bombarded with heterosexism. So when it gets to the point where you can think for yourself, you've got all this subconscious and subliminal baggage to get through. This is why teenaged homosexuals have such a high suicide rate - they have to overcome all this stuff, just to accept who they are. I'm kind of glad I was a little older when I realised I was a lesbian. I'd have hated to have realised it while still at High School (a catholic girls school of all places (I discovered I was attracted to girls in the last half of year 12 (when I was 17), but I managed to keep it to myself - I didn't really come to grips with it fully until I was in my mid 20s)). The thing is, they aren't allowed to portray homosexuals in the game. If we do see such things, it's usually via subtext. I was really shocked with NWN:HotU, for example. Here's a game they were instructed to pull the festhall and courtesans from and yet a blatant example of polygamy was allowed through. I don't have a problem with polygamy (or polyandry or polyamory) at all... but really! It seems to fall into non-standard sexuality (I'm not sure why I'm so surprised, to be honest... titilation value of two gals wanting to be with one guy, even if they don't want to be with each other). (A festhall, by the by, is more than just a brothel. It also serves as a tavern and performance venue for bards and the like.) Oh I think I rambled a bit myself... About the quote brackets? You forgot to close one, which meant they all got mucked up.
  12. Heya, What actually goes on in an individual DMs game is completely up to the DM... But Ed Greenwood has made it fairly clear that people in the Realms are less biased against homosexuality, and tend to accept it as normal (which doesn't mean every single person accepts it). You have to keep in mind that a lot of the prejudice against homosexuality in the Real World comes from religious sources here... It's easy enough to forget that. But the Realms doesn't have to deal with Real World religions, and none of the deities of the Realms specifically condemn homosexuality. You can come back and say (and I have a feeling you would) "but homosexuality isn't natural!!" The fact of the matter is, yes it is. It's completely natural. Many animal species including primates, exhibit homosexual behaviour, and some species even form true pair-bonds between same gendered pairs. Bisexuality in nature is a lot more common than most people would probably think. There probably are some people in the Realms who are vehemently and possibly violently opposed to homosexuality, but they'd be fairly rare. Because there aren't the same kind of social pressures in the Realms, anyone else who isn't homosexual or bisexual would probably be able to laugh and say "I'm not interested in <insert own gender here>," if someone of the homosexual persuasion made a play for them... Why feel threatened? Homosexuals aren't out to rape people or convert them, we love just like straight people do - and we can handle rejection too. Besides, just accepting homosexuality doesn't automatically mean one is homosexual.
  13. Heya, When taken in the context of the other two female male romance characters, Aerie (Maiden), and Jaheira (Mother)... you can see what I'm getting at (I hope). Viconia fits into the last of the trio - either Whore or Crone. You raise some very good points, and even made me step back and question my motivations. (Though I think you still missed my point about aggression (or dominance)/submission, but that's probably because I didn't word it too well.) The thing that you said that really set me back on my heels was talking about Juhani. The fact is, yes I have got upset when reading a story that depicted Juhani as not only straight, but taking up with Canderous (Canderous!!). The difference is, Juhani is the very very first lesbian character I have ever encountered in any game I have ever played (and trust me, I've played a great many games in my life). To have someone "take that away" from me was shocking to say the least - especially since they didn't even place a disclaimer in their story summary. I would not have read the story had they mentioned the Juhani/Canderous relationship. The thing with Juhani is, people are just so used to seeing heterosexuality around them, and when presented with someone who is gay (without literally declaring their sexuality at any point) tend to ignore what they see, or don't see it, or don't believe it. There were a few threads started with people asking "Why is Juhani hitting on my female PC? Is this a bug or what?!" (When I wrote to the author of that story, by the way, she had no idea that Juhani was a lesbian... Like many people, she'd totally missed the clues.) The difference, if you could call it that, is that Viconia is one of many female heretosexual romances. I am making it very clear what I'm doing, and people are free to avoid this mod if they want. You can think of this mod as a piece of slash fiction, with the relationship marked clearly (F/F, Viconia/female PC) in the summary. I agree that Viconia, as portrayed in the game, is straight. I am not sure I'd go so far as to say homophobic as well (I think that whole exchange is part of a plot-hole caused by dev ignorance of the Realms). In my opinion, it only takes the slightest shift in her personality to make her bisexual. Also, I'm not making this easy for a female. It is going to be difficult to get the right combination of friendship and interest... You could say that Viconia in this mod is a heterosexual leaning bisexual. Lastly, I apologise for insulting you. It really was uncalled for.
  14. Heya, I did miss that one, and I finished the game once with a female PC (not one of my habits, I'm not very good at roleplaying them). What character was it, if I may ask? Everything you wanted to know about a Romance with Juhani but were afraid to ask (including comments by designer Peter Thomas) That should answer your questions. (Including the fact that Juhani telling a male PC that she wishes he had his heart was actually a bug.)
  15. Heya, lol, weird logic if i ever saw any, i assume that she likes anomen and sarevok because of their feminine qualities - those bulging muscles, those... beards... oh and the penis, let's not forget the penis (do i have to draw with my penis?) and she thinks drizzt is 'delicious' because he's so slim and woman-like, and he reminds her of all those drow males in the underdark that reminded her of women, course, since she obviously doesn't like men, and women in the underdark are so man-like. You, dear girl (boy?), have just taken me completely literally and out of context. In the relationship, Viconia acts aggressively, which we are told is the way males are supposed to act. The male in the relationship is expected to accept any abuse she might heap on them to make the relationship work, which is how we are told a woman should react. Now do you see what I'm getting at? I am talking about stereotypes here, figuratively as opposed to literally. Or are you one of those who think I'm literally calling Viconia a whore when I call her an Archetypical Whore? Use your brain, and don't waste my time.
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