toxin

I'm doing that elder vampires + greater mummies fight in the Firkraag's dungeon

 

Yeah SCS Improved vampires make that fight ridiculous. On the upside, once you defeat them the rest of the dungeon is going to be a joke (assuming you are not crazy enough to attack Firkraag himself ).

SCS doesn't care if you're invisible for anti-magic attacks, I'm afraid.

 

All the more reason for a higher level AI SS to level the playing field - Improved Invisibility is better for them (same level but protects them better), SS is better for you (same protection but lower level).

Improved Invisibility also buys you a round as far as spell targeting goes, except it also buys you some time against melee attacks. And that's not even mentioning all that semi-invisibility mojo it's going on. If all that is lvl 4, I think a solid argument could be made for lvl 3 spell shield, lvl 4 at most.

Regarding the AI wasting 5th level slots, like I said I don't see it as a big deal at all (what with you typically coming into the fight with much more than one 5th level spell missing), and I don't even recall seeing the AI cast it twice so at most it's one wasted 5th level spell.. you would have to fight most mages forever for them to reach a point where they actually use four 5th level spells and then have to resort to a 4th level spell because they ran out of slots, and even then the fight would be at a point where that single spell is highly unlikely to make any a difference.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for letting the AI use it as 3rd level, I'm just saying that if it's hard to implement then keeping it 5th for the AI is a reasonable compromise IMHO.

Cool, thanks for clarifying.

I still think lvl 5 is too high for it, because realistically you'll use the 3rd level Spell Thrust to get rid of it (the fact that it can stop SpellStrike is almost irrelevant)...

SS doesn't counter Dispel magic, DM ignores it completely.

 

I'm confused. This is what my description of SS says (latest beta):

 

This powerful abjuration protects the caster from any dispel attempt against him, effectively granting immunity to Dispel Magic and similar spells. However, when the caster is protected by this spell the next magical attack against him will always prioritize the Spell Shield. If any magical attack is cast at the wizard the shield absorbs it, but is consumed in the process.

BTW another thought is to make it last longer (e.g. 1 turn/level) so you could walk around with it a bit. AI casts it on sight (as "previously cast") so it seems fair enough...

I would love to try IR's potions but I'm mid-game and the changes it makes to special items are too extreme (I already outfitted my entire party optimally for vanilla items). For my next run (probably IWDEE) you can count on it

Regarding the spell level, one option is to make it 4th level and not 3rd if you see the advantage as too great. That will already be a huge improvement over 5th (personally I may even give up a Stoneskin slot for it). But in either case, I don't think the advantage is that great... think about it - when you're fighting AI mages they have all of their spells memorized. On average, you are going to have like half of your spells depleted - I would take a single 5th level spell off my entire spellbook for each encounter any day. Besides, 5th level spells aren't such a big deal for most mages - they will typically blast you with (much) higher level spells and the outcome of the battle will be decided long before they have to resort to 5th level spells...

I have a couple of suggestions for Spell Shield.

1. Make it lower level. What's so great about it? It counters DM/RM which are both lvl 3 and OP as it is. In addition, 5th level is just too crowded with essential spells you basically have to memorize - between Breach, Dispelling Screen and Lower Resistance (not to mention Shadow Door and Waves of Fatigue) you simply can't afford it. The situation at 4th level is not much better, with critical spells like Stoneskin, Greater Malison, and Secret Word (not to mention Confusion and Teleport Field). I think lvl 3 is fair considering DM/RM.

2. Make its casting time lower. This spell is the only defense casters have against beholder Anti-Magic rays, and by the time the 5 casting time is over it's too late. Another option is to make the AM ray casting time long enough to allow a mage to protect himself.

Suggestion for Devas and Planetars - have them memorize the Remove Paralysis spell. They already have Break Enchantment and Cure Disease, so this seems only natural (not to mention super useful!).

Could an effect be made with the following logic?

1. Intercept each attack
2. Determine if said attack would kill the character
3. If so, absorb the damage and set the character's HP to zero (as to avoid chunking)

Kiss any tome granted attributes goodbye, I suppose

 

I guess that's an acceptable price to pay for resurrection from an otherwise irreversible death...

Thanks for clarifying kreso. This brings back the question of a dialog-based Resurrection spell that can bring back anyone... any thoughts?

BTW, what does Memory Level do other than disable chunking?

Regarding a dialog-based resurrection spell, wouldn't the code for detecting whether someone is dead or not be present in the fate spirit logic?

Thanks Jarno!

I have to say this is a clear design flaw, having something cosmetic like gore settings actually interfere with gameplay.. what were they thinking?

Is it possible to make Resurrection (or even Raise Dead) bring back characters who died irreversibly ("exploded" to chunks)?

If not, can that "chunking" be prevented entirely? I have the SCS "Make party members less likely to die irreversibly" component, but Dragon Breath seems to bypass it...

SR actually tries to fix this:

- cleric's getting Gate as a 7th lvl spell was really OP, they now get the same lesser variant that mages get, Summon Death Knight

- cleric's getting Confusion as a 7th lvl spell was silly imo, they now get (Sphere of) Chaos

SR may be far from perfect, but at least give me credit for going on the right direction.

 

Nice, I didn't know that You and the rest of the modders here get all the credit in the world in my book - please accept my sincere apology if it didn't come out like that in my post. And the direction is definitely right, especially if it includes nerfing Holy Word

See the games original games 9th level mage spell was the "same" level 7 cleric spell, this was due to balancing. There was nothing wrong with that... after all the mage and clerics progressed at a different rates in XP.

My problem is not with clerics getting spells from higher wizard levels, rather with the inconsistency inside the cleric spell levels themselves.

Think of it like this - would you use a 9th level spell slot to have your mage memorize a 7th level spell? Probably not...

while it was argued that HW should "only be as powerful as other 7th level spells, I'll remind everyone that these are the most powerful spells available to priests, and the game often equates them with higher-level wizard spells

I agree, there is definitely a consistency/balance issue here. Why take Chaos which is wizard lvl 7 if you can take Symbol of Stunning which is lvl8 or indeed Gate which is lvl9? I suspect a bigger refactoring is required to fix this situation.. maybe a weakened Gate spell or an improved Chaos spell.. something to bring them all to about the same power level.

BTW a big factor to consider regarding elixirs of health - my statements about shortage of elixirs may have been exaggerated (I'll admit to being a bit on the cheap side ) but the fact remains that some people don't play with IR (I'm one of them, don't shoot!). I'll go as far as to suggest that SR change some key items/potions to work better with the spell changes, and start with elixirs of health / antidotes - something to counter deafness.

Two questions before I seriously start to design a possible alternative for these two spells:

1) do we want to keep the HD limits?

2) save, or no save?

 

1. I never liked HD limits. High levels give you enough advantages as it is (better saves, more HP, more spells, etc). IMHO there's no need to artificially add direct level advantages - you should use your level bonuses yourself wisely to gain them.

2. Save, at some reasonable penalty for a spell at this level (I guess -4?)

@Toxin see my post above, we probably wrote at the same time. Btw, Spell Deflection works against pretty much averything unless you don't like the AoE tweak, but I guess I cannot count on an optional component even if recommended.

 

Yeah I play without it

Isn't the whole point of battles in this game that you try to mess up your opponents' strategy, and your opponent tries to mess up yours? And you both then try to adapt and counter? It's the highest level spell, and it buys a single round (2-3 spells, as you say) against opposing casters... that's too powerful??? I'm trying to think how it could be *less* powerful.

 

A single round assuming you have enough potions for all such situations in the game, which I suspect is far from the case. Besides, a big part of the strategy is preparation, as as far as I can tell there's no way to defend against deafness (save for SotA I suppose). Moreover, I submit that a single 7th lvl spell that pseudo-neutralizes your entire caster roster with no save and no defense, even for a single round, is OP. Kind of reminds me of the DM issue. And like Demi said, this is even worse for the AI.

It's a priest directly channeling the voice of a *god* - what do you suggest the effects be? Something that *doesn't* harm opponents? Instead of just saying "nerf it nerf it nerf it" maybe suggest what you think the spell should do.

 

SR is geared towards balance. This means that the fact that the voice of a god is involved is irrelevant. The only thing relevant is the fact that it's a 7th lvl priest spell, and should be about as powerful as the other 7th lvl spells. As for my suggestion - level check and/or save for the deafness effect.

No reason to stick to PnP here IMHO. So here's another idea: Weakness (Str/Dex/Con penalties) plus a casting speed penalty, no save, 5 rounds. So you can still fight, you can still cast, but are less efficient at both. To me that sounds like something that might result from exposure to the voice of an angry god...

 

Fair enough. Much better than the current situation. It would be nice to have something like "mass cure disease" to combat this (as well as symbol weakness) though.

You can move away from cloud, while Insects engulf you.

 

This only strengthens my argument. If we have an 8th lvl spell you can just walk away from AND dispel with a 2-3 lvl spell (GoW) and that's not considered useless, why would insect swarm be considered as such? Also if you hit the only caster that has GoW memorized it may not help him much, and even if he was able to cast it, that's still a wasted opportunity cost where he could have cast, say, Holy Word

BTW, whatever you do with the spell please fix its description - it current says deafness only takes place when the target's level is equal to the caster's level.

The deafness effect isn't a problem for players imo despite geg hating it. Players can block it with spell protections, cure it with a spell or even with a potion. I'm more concerned about its effectiveness against AI, which cannot rely much on those.

 

To a lesser extent I don't like that the only effect not limited by HD check is purely anti-spellcaster, but that's not a big deal.

What spell protection blocks holy word deafness (besides Shield of the Archons I guess)?

Spells are almost useless when a single holy word deafens your entire party.

I guess you could stock up on Elixirs of health, though I'm not sure how many of these are available (haven't checked).

How is something that seriously messes up the most important part of the game's strategy not a big deal?

If GoW cures insects in the entire area I fear insect spells will turn from really good spells into utterly useless

 

How is that different from, say, incendiary cloud? That's a lvl 8 spell nullified by the same counter - compared to that summon insects is nothing.

One thing missing from this discussion is opportunity cost. Sure, you could have all your casters quaff a potion to counter the deafness effects, but that's typically 2-3 wasted caster rounds (+2-3 wasted potions which are not unlimited in the game). These critical rounds often determine the outcome of a battle (e.g. you could have cast comet, dragon breath, chaos...) and IMO such an AoE effect with no save is simply too powerful, let alone for a 7th level spell.

I totally agree about Insect Plague. The problem with Holy Word is that summoned planetars / devas seem to use the old version that deafens you regardless of level, which is extremely annoying.

1) reduce MR for all creatures. 50% is way way too much and un-fun if you re trying to use magic other then stoneskin, mirror image, haste and pfmw. 50% creatures should be going to ~20% no more

2) word of faith. i dont know if it works like it used to but it used to deafen everyone for 10 rounds eliminating spellcasting. this is way way too much. And every fiend casts it.

3) automatic contingencies/triggers. on to-do list already.

4) perhaps. lower the effectiveness of Pfmw? It always irked me Carsomyr cant do anything about the spell. Pfmw should maybe check for save vs wand or smth and if the save is failed, the weapon actually hits through?

1. Isn't this more of an SCS thing? I don't think SR messes with MR of enemies... regardless I do agree that MR is generally way too high and too common, and many times is just acheesy way to strengthen enemies (especially bosses, fighters in particular). However IMO it does make sense for some enemies to have high or even total MR, like jellies and golems.

2. It seems SR fixed this spell but as far as I can tell summoned planetars cast the old version which is way too powerful as you specified (does not consider level for deafening). BTW beholders anti-magic ray is 10 times worst thatn this. You can't cast, your buffs are gone in an instant, you cant defend against it (spell shield doesn't work and even if it did it would get burned right away). When facing several beholders even the shield of Balduran isn't enough as it gets snatched from your hands by their telekinesis before you manage to kill them all.

It works now, thanks !

Thanks Demi, sounds great!

I'm getting this error though: http://pastebin.com/aKW0AAw5

DEBUG file: http://pastebin.com/yWaVSYnU

Weido log: http://pastebin.com/rUdNQvx6

BG2EE, Win8.1

A minor nit: the tp2 file is named item_rev.tp2 where the convention seems to suggest setup-item_rev.tp2