Dealing with Remove Magic

[Guest deeh]

Currently running a solo F/M/C, about to fight the goons at the top level of the Iron Throne building. Battling fighters alone (buffs) or mages alone (shape change: slime) is easy enough, but together they are rather problematic.

 

The only way I can effectively defend myself against mages is basically shape change: slime, because they all enjoy casting Remove Magic way too much. However without buffs (and in the slow and vulnerable shape of a slime), I don't think my chances of surviving the fighters and backstabbing thieves are too high.

 

How can one deal with Remove Magic? In particular I'm wondering if there are any scrolls of Spell Immunity in the game and if so, where can I find them?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Saros]

I think that your mage levels shouldn't allow you to cast Polymorph self. I guess you're using scrolls?

 

Backstabbing thieves should be the least of your worries in Slime form. I recall that this form gives immunity to Piercing weapons 100%. Well, I cannot recall if they actually use longswords...in which case this is irrelevant.

 

You can evade enemy Remove/Dispel magics by using the staircase (going down) in the moment you see an enemy is casting Remove/Dispel magic. Standing near the stairs is, of course, advised if you're going to use this.

 

If this is too cheesy for you, here is more 'honest' battleplan.

 

Go upstairs Invisible and under Cloak of Non-Detection protection. Sneak to the back rooms. Enemies will try to divine your location without any luck.

 

In the back rooms, you have free time to summon a sizeable monster horde, to buff it and send it against the enemies. Provided that many monsters are buffed, enemies will almost right away waste their Dispel/Remove magics. They have few (1 each as I recall). Send the buffed monsters in groups of 5-6, so that all enemies expend their Remove/Dispel magics. Afterwards fight with all buffs active. I usually bring for this battle a Magic Protection potion, and with items (Balduran Cloak and Archmagi robe) this means that your MR will be 80%. Use potion buffs to decrease your saves, and no magic will be frightening afterwards. This, of course, as pre-combat buffing.

 

All in all, you have to use many potions in the tough fights if you're trying to survive in a SCS solo. There are plenty of potions, and not that many scary SCS fights even with TOTSC added, so don't be afraid to use potions

[Guest deeh]

I think that your mage levels shouldn't allow you to cast Polymorph self. I guess you're using scrolls?

 

Using an xp cap remover, so that's not an issue.

 

Backstabbing thieves should be the least of your worries in Slime form. I recall that this form gives immunity to Piercing weapons 100%. Well, I cannot recall if they actually use longswords...in which case this is irrelevant.

 

Indeed I was unsure whether they were wielding piercing or slashing weapons, and I certainly wasn't going to risk it.

 

You can evade enemy Remove/Dispel magics by using the staircase (going down) in the moment you see an enemy is casting Remove/Dispel magic. Standing near the stairs is, of course, advised if you're going to use this.

 

If this is too cheesy for you, here is more 'honest' battleplan.

 

That certainly is a viable tactic, but not particularly satisfying.

 

Go upstairs Invisible and under Cloak of Non-Detection protection. Sneak to the back rooms. Enemies will try to divine your location without any luck.

 

In the back rooms, you have free time to summon a sizeable monster horde, to buff it and send it against the enemies. Provided that many monsters are buffed, enemies will almost right away waste their Dispel/Remove magics. They have few (1 each as I recall). Send the buffed monsters in groups of 5-6, so that all enemies expend their Remove/Dispel magics. Afterwards fight with all buffs active. I usually bring for this battle a Magic Protection potion, and with items (Balduran Cloak and Archmagi robe) this means that your MR will be 80%. Use potion buffs to decrease your saves, and no magic will be frightening afterwards. This, of course, as pre-combat buffing.

 

All in all, you have to use many potions in the tough fights if you're trying to survive in a SCS solo. There are plenty of potions, and not that many scary SCS fights even with TOTSC added, so don't be afraid to use potions

 

I ended up doing something along those lines: snuck to the back of the room using Sanctuary and bombarded the group with Web, Cloudkill and Chaos, then sent in skeletons to absorb some spells. I would have preferred a cleaner fight but a soloist is just too vulnerable to Dispel/Remove Magic.

 

 

I think SCS is a very good mod but there still are some issues:

 

- Mages wasting their spells on summons if you stay out of sight (and some of them even try to cast Sleep, Horror, Confusion, Chaos etc. on skeletons which makes little sense). I haven't yet experienced it myself but surely mages are smart enough not to cast Remove Magic on some lowly summons as Saros says?

 

- Enemies happily standing around while you bombard them with non-damaging AOE spells beyond their sight range. Why don't they react when they see a spell coming after them?

 

I probably wouldn't be able to solo the game without those issues because fighting mixed groups of enemies without buffs is a recipe for disaster, but I'd feel much better about myself if I could defend against the annoying Dispel/Remove Magic somehow (Spell Immunity or Spell Shield, for example).

[Saros]

Using an xp cap remover, so that's not an issue.

 

With removed xp cap there are many more viable different strategies vs this group and vs Remove/Dispel magic. Here is an example: raise your wizard level to 12-13 and then you have nothing to fear from almost all enemy mages/clerics. Remove and Dispel magic is bugged - once your level is 1 above the enemy caster level, the enemy has 0% chance of dispelling your buffs.

 

There are no Spell Shield or Spell Immunity scrolls in BG1 as far as I know. The reason is simple - even the most powerful enemy mages (level 13 or 14) do not have (or use) such spells, so why should you? As far as I remember, there isn't even a Breach scroll to be found anywhere. A Sorcerer can still have any of these spells of course.

 

Still, IMHO, removing the xp cap in SCS or SCSII is far too cheesy to my liking, in a solo game - it makes the fights much more easier due to higher wizard/cleric levels and more spell slots. If you want a real challenge, try beating that group at levels 6/6/6 (which are max with TOTSC xp cap).

 

In addition, Spell Shield does not protect versus Remove/Dispel magic.

 

Enemies (as far as I noticed) ignore only a number of those non-damaging AoE spells, but indeed it's possible to eliminate whole groups easily via Horror or Web spamming tactic. Still, as DavidW said, he didn't take out all cheesy methods from the mod - so if you want to, you may still use these strategies.

[Guest deeh]

Remove and Dispel magic is bugged - once your level is 1 above the enemy caster level, the enemy has 0% chance of dispelling your buffs.

 

I do not think I have yet been in the situation where my mage level exceeded that of a rival, single-class mage. Still, I would expect the G3 Fixpack to deal with something like this, but I'll take your word for it.

 

There are no Spell Shield or Spell Immunity scrolls in BG1 as far as I know. The reason is simple - even the most powerful enemy mages (level 13 or 14) do not have (or use) such spells, so why should you?

 

I think an Improved Invisibility + Spell Immunity: Divination combination would enhance the survivability of some enemy mages. Of course this is hardly an issue once you get those Arrows of Dispelling, which pretty much make any SCS mage a breeze.

 

Still, IMHO, removing the xp cap in SCS or SCSII is far too cheesy to my liking, in a solo game - it makes the fights much more easier due to higher wizard/cleric levels and more spell slots. If you want a real challenge, try beating that group at levels 6/6/6 (which are max with TOTSC xp cap).

 

I think this is a matter of definition. I don't consider removing an arbitrary and illogical rule like the xp cap cheese - why should my PC stop gaining experience all of a sudden? Besides, reaching the cap some 10%-20% into the game is not much fun in any case.

 

Also I dare say to beat that group at levels 6/6/6 you have to resort to a certain amount of cheese - such as buffing up summoned monsters so mages waste their Remove/Dispel magic, as you pointed out in your earlier post.

 

In addition, Spell Shield does not protect versus Remove/Dispel magic.

 

My experience with the spell is limited at best (actually I don't think I've ever used Spell Shield). Nice to know.

 

Still, as DavidW said, he didn't take out all cheesy methods from the mod - so if you want to, you may still use these strategies.

 

I suppose that makes sense. It is my understanding SCS was written with a party in mind (as opposed to soloing), meaning you don't even have to rely on such strategies in most cases.

 

It's nice to have something to fall back on when you're soloing (i.e. cheesy/semi-cheesy strategies), but I would much prefer a "cleaner" method.

[Saros]

I do not think I have yet been in the situation where my mage level exceeded that of a rival, single-class mage. Still, I would expect the G3 Fixpack to deal with something like this, but I'll take your word for it.

 

You may be right. My current install excludes the BG2 or G3 fixpacks, and thus has some unfixed by them issues. Maybe, Remove magic in your install is fixed. If you want to be sure, try 20-30 attempts of dispelling spell buffs with another caster, 1 level lower.

 

I think an Improved Invisibility + Spell Immunity: Divination combination would enhance the survivability of some enemy mages. Of course this is hardly an issue once you get those Arrows of Dispelling, which pretty much make any SCS mage a breeze.

 

You're not completely right:

 

Protection from Missiles (tweaked by SCS) protects enemy mages from Arrows of Dispellation.

 

In SCS, it's far more likely to have a thief with detect illusion skill 100% rather than druidical True Sight spell, which makes SI:D ineffective.

 

Arrows of Dispelling have to be shot from a very good (or well-buffed) archer in order to hit through a combination of Spirit Armor + Improved invisibility + Blur on enemy mages. Also, don't forget that these Arrows are rare and relatively few in the entire SCS (about 62-64, not sure of their exact number). Unless you apply the cheese of lowering your reputation and killing Flaming fists for their arrows of dispelling...

 

Also I dare say to beat that group at levels 6/6/6 you have to resort to a certain amount of cheese - such as buffing up summoned monsters so mages waste their Remove/Dispel magic, as you pointed out in your earlier post.

 

This is not SoA. Summoned monsters in BG1 are a threat alone, and are even a bigger threat if buffed. If enemies ignore them and wait to see PC for a target of their remove/dispel magic, they will be most likely very quickly chopped to pieces. So I wouldn't say that buffing enemies to wait for mages to use their Remove on them is cheesy. In fact, if the mages don't, then the fight will be over probably even quicker.

 

BTW, your higher clerical levels allow you to command your summons extremely effectively, while still staying out of enemy sight. If you cast a couple of FarSight spells, you'll be able to see the entire battlefield.

[Guest deeh]

You're not completely right:

 

Protection from Missiles (tweaked by SCS) protects enemy mages from Arrows of Dispellation.

 

I don't know which version you are playing, but in mine (v12) Arrows of Dispelling go right through PfNM. It's stated explicitly in the readme as well that they are an exception.

 

In SCS, it's far more likely to have a thief with detect illusion skill 100% rather than druidical True Sight spell, which makes SI:D ineffective.

 

You'd have to devote 3-4 thief levels entirely to get 100% in detect illusions. I think those points are better spent elsewhere (and besides, I find it easier to rely on spells such Detect Invisibility or Invisibility Purge). Of course if I knew mages were running SI:D, I might distribute my points differently.

 

Anyway I will concede that Spell Immunity is not needed; I don't deal with most mages by trying to bring down their protections but rather just brute force and summons. Once I reach the Gate I rely on Arrows of Dispelling if I have a good archer. Whichever the case, Spell Immunity is not going to help the poor mage survive long.

 

Arrows of Dispelling have to be shot from a very good (or well-buffed) archer in order to hit through a combination of Spirit Armor + Improved invisibility + Blur on enemy mages. Also, don't forget that these Arrows are rare and relatively few in the entire SCS (about 62-64, not sure of their exact number). Unless you apply the cheese of lowering your reputation and killing Flaming fists for their arrows of dispelling...

 

Most mages don't run those three particular buffs simultaneously, do they? I usually have little trouble hitting them with a thaco of 8 or less (and it's not exactly hard to go that low or even lower with a fighter-type with a fairly high dexterity and some well-chosen items).

 

I don't know about the rarity of those Arrows. I have a component from the Tweakpack (or some other mod, I do not remember which) that increases ammunition stacks so there are at least 120 of those arrows in my games. Normally I use about 40-50 of those, as more often than not, one per mage is enough.

 

This is not SoA. Summoned monsters in BG1 are a threat alone, and are even a bigger threat if buffed. If enemies ignore them and wait to see PC for a target of their remove/dispel magic, they will be most likely very quickly chopped to pieces. So I wouldn't say that buffing enemies to wait for mages to use their Remove on them is cheesy. In fact, if the mages don't, then the fight will be over probably even quicker.

 

That obviously depends on the encounter. I can see why a single mage would perhaps want to dispel the buffs of summons (but again it would be safer and simpler to just kill them outright with Sunfire or Fireball, though granted not all mages have access to such spells). A mage surrounded by a couple of fighters should not have the same problem, however.

 

BTW, your higher clerical levels allow you to command your summons extremely effectively, while still staying out of enemy sight. If you cast a couple of FarSight spells, you'll be able to see the entire battlefield.

 

Interesting idea, however I usually find it very hard to control my summons...their AI seems to compel them to attack the nearest enemy almost exclusively. I can move them for a couple of seconds, but then they just go at it again.

[Ilyich]

Remove and Dispel magic is bugged - once your level is 1 above the enemy caster level, the enemy has 0% chance of dispelling your buffs.

 

Is this fixable, out of interest?

[Saros]

Detect Invisibility and Invisibility Purge spells are somewhat useful, but are not nearly as useful as Detect Illusions 100%:

 

Detect Invisibility does not dispel the Illusion spells which the enemy is running. Plus it occupies a valuable 2nd level arcane slot, which may be spent on Mirror Image. Also, you have to cast this spell (spend your round on this I mean), and it works once only whihe the Detect Illusion skill may be used several times in one battle - many mages have Invisibility + Mirror Image in Minor Sequencer.

 

Invisibility purge has a casting time of 8, so I do not see how THIS is effective, unless in a party with a priest(druids have true sight even under xp cap). It also does not dispel Improved invisibility (at least not in my tests).

 

So spending points in Detect illusion skill is in fact the first thing which a SCS thief has to do - before even Detect traps or Pick Locks. There are items, potions and spells which may boost these skills, while Detect Illusions is pretty much unaffected by any potion (including dexterity buffing ones).

 

I think that there is an option in the installation menu where you can set Protection from Missiles to protect vs enchanted arrows as well - and you should, since this way, some (not all) enemy mages become immune to Dispellation arrows due to proMissiles buff.

[Guest Guest]

I think that there is an option in the installation menu where you can set Protection from Missiles to protect vs enchanted arrows as well - and you should, since this way, some (not all) enemy mages become immune to Dispellation arrows due to proMissiles buff.

 

I'm almost positive I chose to install that and arrows of dispel went straight throw PfNM.

 

Oh and to OP: Scrolls of ProMagic are rather abundant in BG1 - Bentan @ Firewine Bridge; Thalantyr @ High Hedge sells; Sorcerous Sundries Guy sells; Hafiz @ Gibberling Mountains (Right next to Nashkel Mines Exit Map) to name a few.

 

Also why are you soloing the game? Now that BG1NPC has made the NPCs romanceable/interject..I don't see a reason why not to have NPCs around.

[Ilyich]

Also why are you soloing the game? Now that BG1NPC has made the NPCs romanceable/interject..I don't see a reason why not to have NPCs around.

 

I'm not deeh, but I personally solo for the extra challenge that a single character obviously has, and because I am so lazy that I can't even be bothered with a solo spellcaster, let alone put up with the micro-management that a full party requires. I also find certain battles easier with just one character, for example the fight with Zhalimir Cloudwolfe and his goons is extremely hectic and difficult with a party, while with a solo, you can pick and choose your targets much easier.