Psyrista

That’s fair. I did have a feeling it’d be a substantial undertaking, and probably not worth the effort considering the potential results. Still, can’t hurt to speculate! Understood on the multi class front too. It’s easy to keep using “ranger/psion” as a simple way of defining the kit when focusing on the details, and so equally easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. As long as it can mess people up with its mind, that’s all I care about!

@subtledoctor Thanks for indulging my curiosity with a taste of your IG experiences with the mod! V. interesting to hear how Nalia performs in practice. On your suggestion that a MC psionist would be a 'test', I'll continue with my Plan A of trying to work a Psypher somewhere into the party on my next playthrough. The fact that so many elements seem to synergize well - especially with some of Might & Guile's base class tweaks factored in - are making me hopeful that, in theory, it'll play almost like a more broadly versatile Stalker... equal in combat effectiveness, with some fun casting options to supplement it. (If it's not obvious by this point, I'm enamoured with the idea of having a sneaky, stabby, fantasy Jedi.) A random thought that I figured I'd ask while here. While I have no idea of the logistics involved in making it work, how feasible would a Psion/Druid be? Obviously this would be 'druid' in name only, but would there perhaps be some way to adjust the Ranger side of the multiclass to take advantage of the old quirk that allowed Cleric/Ranger access to all druid spells? And, if that were feasible (without requiring a ton of work for potentially limited payoff, and some of the technical frustrations you've mentioned before in relation to Mage/Scion), would there be any way to do this without impacting the Psypher? I'm not sure how deep the coding for the "All druid spells" glitch ran and whether you're able to alter it in a way that doesn't impact other kits. Just thinking out loud. Curious more than anything!

I'm intrigued to see how these power trade-offs between starting class and Psion multiclass play out in practice. I'll almost certainly be working a Psypher into my next playthrough (Bhaalspawn or otherwise), but on paper alone I'm having difficulty working out exactly how this power balancing act has been struck - especially when the changes made by mods like Might and Guile to these based classes/kits are factored in. What I mean by this is that, as touched on briefly earlier in this thread, it feels like the Ranger loses the least vs. Thieves and Fighters when adopting these powers. Assuming that some of M&G's base mechanical changes apply to these classes to, such as 2x backstab for all rangers etc., on top of differing levels of PSPs to spend between each class, the Fighter's armor restrictions and the reduced power of Psionics vs. magic, then this problem becomes magnified - if you're not wearing plate, in practical terms you're reduced to backstabbing, spell flinging or ranged attacking. If rangers have stealth and are granted the ability to backstab with M&G (good grief, I hope this does carry over!) then you've immediately made the Soulblade redundant and look to be grossly outclassing the Psionist in most areas outside of PSP fuel. Then factor in what the Psionist offers vs the base thief options. The reduced backstab multiplier and heavily reduced thievery points (exacerbated by the power kick given to base thieves in MG: i.e. Cleric THAC0, 20 thievery points on kit, feats) seem to necessitate the need for a 2nd thief for a good chunk of the game - although obviously this is hardly an challenge exclusive to this mod, what with the 3,000 NPC thieves already in-game... The issue I see here is, as you've just touched on yourself, realistically you've got limited room in a functional party to spare on what psionics can bring by themselves. Obviously it's unfair to compare these multiclass kits with basically anything that has /mage as part of its setup in terms of raw power - I'm more focused on what the other classes are losing. Psionist feels like it might be the biggest loser here, as it seems as if it'd be an exponentially weaker mage/thief in terms of practicality. Of course, I absolutely understand the logic of the reduced power of psionics vs. some of the ludicrously powerful magic in-game (even when factoring in the various spell revision mods). I'm simply curious to see just how much the Psionist can bring to the party - apart from RP flair - that isn't already being provided by either the empowered base thief & kits or various thief multis, not to mention many of the other options offered up in your mods - the bards, new multis and so on. I wouldn't expect a Psionist, Psypher, Soulblade etc. to be so good that they're effectively filling 2/6 of your party slots, letting you carry something else - rather I'm trying to ascertain if they're good enough on their own merit to at least be at 1/6. Any less than that, and suddenly they're the class that's being carried. Initially I assumed it was the combination of self-sufficiency and flexibility, but from reading your thoughts through this thread I'm getting the impression that PSPs are limited enough that, in practice, you could be operating on a similar level of resource management as any other caster, just with reduced power and a number of additional penalties to your base class. That said, I'm definitely not chasing another X-class/mage power spike setup, and power absolutely isn't everything: and it's absolutely not what I'm looking for in this mod. RP flavour is king for me; I'm simply looking to get a better understanding the playstyle, balance and opportunities this mod is looking to provide, while trying to reassure myself that Psionics as they are comfortably offer enough usefulness to offset the penalties required to obtain them. There's a very strong chance that in reading patch notes and discussions alone I've been missing something that'll only become clear in practice. As I've said previously, I'm still a way off of being in a position to actually try this for myself. So, if I've completely missed the point, feel free to tell me to jog on! I'd also love to hear from somebody who's actively using this mod in a play through to share their experiences and thoughts on how much these Psionic classes bring to a party vs. any of the alternatives. Likewise, I'd love to hear more of your own IG experiences and thoughts with this mod so far @subtledoctor.

I'm all for removing unnecessary complications from spells. There are already enough mechanical hoops to jump through as it is, without requiring 30 clicks to achieve the same result as a single spell/potion. I think the only other potential case to be made for keeping them as a consumable (if it's not already been covered) is perhaps identifying another low-level buff or benefit that is usually only self-targeted? Off the top of my head I can't think of anything that is A) Available to druids, B) Not already available to other classes, C) Wouldn't be OP,/useless in this form (accounting for balance tuning), or D) Would still actually vaguely fit the nature of the Goodberry spell (Having a berry that briefly grants Iron Skin might be neat, but isn't exactly in keeping with the theme.) But really, regen and long, OOC cast-time does the trick. Keeps it useful without making a bunch of other spells redundant. And, frankly, it's probably the most consideration and attention Goodberries have received in the last 20 years, so let's not be picky.

@Endarire beat me to the punch. I think making it a slow heal over time + alleviating fatigue would suit it thematically - slowly rejuvenating your party over time, as you’d imagine magical food would do. It gives it some utility for exploration (especially for dungeon crawling or for those who don’t rest until the whole party is cured), without straight up outclassing other spells or being totally redundant. I suppose with this direction though it’d need to remain a consumable to avoid the balancing issues with other spells that would probably come with making it an AoE spell.

I agree that I feel the current balance of power keeps every flavour of caster distinct and capable in equal measure. My concern would be that, for all the work you could potentially put into adding bardic casting to all wizards, you’d simply be homogenising them - in effect taking the problem of “You need a sorcerer to get through the game” and rather than solving it, just masking the issue. But having a choice between all-round versatility, Powerful magical flexibility or Magical longevity ensures all tastes are effectively catered to, and everyone feels empowered no matter their decision.

Thanks for the swift response. I follow the multi class logic - really, the query about thief feats came from a place of greed rather than actual expectation, but couldn’t hurt to ask! I appreciate the Blade recommendation too. I think I’d managed to blind myself with the stylistic potential of the Bladesinger, Psionist and variations of Assassins/Shadowdancers through feats to scratch this itch for a versatile, combat capable class. I’m awful for being indecisive when it comes to settling on a class in basically any game, so you can imagine the challenge M&G alone presents without factoring in Psionics! Cheers again!

Created an account on this forum just to drop into this thread and say “Thank you @subtledoctor“ for your ongoing work on this and all the other mods you’re working across at the moment. I’ve been without a PC for nearly 5 years now after the last one bricked, and have only now reached a place where I can justify building a new one. So you can imagine my surprise and excitement when I realise that, while I’ve been away, not only have some brilliant mods been developed for the BGEE series, but some of the most exciting mechanical, kit and power changes I’ve seen are not only now available, but still actively (and diligently) being worked on as we speak! One question in anticipation of my new deck going live and being able to get stuck into newly modded play through - are the kits in this mod eligible for the Feats introduced in Might and Guile? I realise they were introduced for single classes and certain kits, and I wasn’t sure how they interacted - aware that Psionist begins as a thief kit but is treated mechanically as a multi class. I didn’t know if this was purely for mechanical reasons or explicitly to manage “spell” progression and limit the power of these new kits? (Largely asking because I’m determined to narrow down the perfect kit to blend backstabbing, passable bursts of physical combat and versatile magic without being crazy OP or agonisingly slow to level) I’m aware this is a question that should easily be answered once I’m actually able to dive into the game myself, but for now I’m still having to make do with ‘window shopping’ and living vicariously through patch notes and my imagination. With that in mind, I totally understand if this question doesn’t warrant the time to answer directly. But at least I got to throw in the ever-important “thanks” all the same. Keep up the great work!