gatperdut

Yep, got it now. You are right. 

Ouch. I will eventually learn all the edge cases. 

2 hours ago, DavidW said:

and it’s a pain to code.

I can see how that'd be the case, thinking a bit about it.

With ignoring the extant memorization, you mean overwriting what slots the characters have with what they should have, based on level alone, yes?

Hahaha fair enough. 

I've been re-reading some threads in discord I just remembered about and I'm seeing the error of my ways too - they mention that SI Abjuration does indeed block Breach. Though they all included "iirc" in the phrasing

So I guess we wait for DavidW. 

I definitely didn't make up the Magic Attack bit - I took from the wiki, and I've seen it used multiple times. 

Also, on that last point, I'm certain you are wrong. Spell Thrust will take down SI, it even says so on the description of the spell.

Common sense would agree with you, but I think SI Abjuration protects you mainly from Dispel/Remove Magic and stuff like Imprisonment. Breach is a Magic Attack which shouldn't be affected by it.

Incidentally, Spell Thrust would be enough to dispel it (because it's a level 5 spell).

Lavok, with his Ring of Acuity which gives him extra spell slots, is a dummy who doesn't fill those up.

I imagine the same might be true for other such items equipped by enemies (few, if any, as they might be).

As the title says, I was running some tests on both Lavok and my own characters, and they cannot be breached until SI: Abjuration is removed. Whether it's cast from memory or a scroll is irrelevant. 

Now, I *think* that is a bug. I'd swear that was never the case before, and the readme doesn't seem to mention anything about it.

Take a look at this thread (its first half of the replies, anyway): 

But in short, a workaround for now is to install them manually afterwards by running setup-stratagems again (I personally did this second run without the batch option).

 Fair. Just thought I'd point it out, because in my head that mechanic worked differently.

When resting at an inn in the room which offers +1 to the physical attributes (to a maximum of 18) while having equipped the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength (19 strength) will set strength to 20.

I would have expected the inn bonus not to be applied, since strength is above 18.

DWRNSCR6 too. Is this useful in any way?

Scratch that, DWRNSCR7 also appeared.

I've found the issue about 8 times and it's always been the id from above. 

It was tricky, but yes: DWRNSCR4.

If I pick it up the item disappears from the quick-loot bar and takes up a slot in the inventory, but the hover tooltip displays the default "Personal Item" as if it was empty (this was tested with a single free inventory slot).

Something else I noticed is that, when picking a valid item with a full inventory which includes an invalid item, the click on the quick-loot drops the invalid item without picking up the valid one. After that, the quick-loot behaves normally. But I guess this is an engine quirk. 

When I find more invalid items I'll try to make a list of the filenames, since I'm not sure  DWRNSCR4 is the only one. 

I occasionally find these invalid items, mostly on drops, though I believe I have occasionally found them in containers.

In the particular case of the attached screenshot, given that it's one of Lehtinan's guards, they would usually have had something valueable in that spot, like a piece of jewellery or perhaps some gold.

My weidu.log is also attached, because I'm not certain that this is an SCS issue.

WeiDU.log

Noticed these 2 components missing in my install too. Reckon it's necessary to start a new game after installing them manually, given that I haven't run into neither Githyanki nor Demiliches? 

I did notice a few of them with SCS too, couldn't tell you where though. When picked up they'd just vanish, instead of cluttering the inventory, and the tooltio said something like ID:99999.

I understood your meaning but I'm afraid I went on a bit of a tangent

It's interesting and satisfying to know how it works in detail, thank you for going through the tests. Admittedly, though, I believe I might have burned through the Deflection charges just a few times, specially at low levels when Spell Thrust is not available (Nimbul comes to mind) and definitely never through the Turning charges.

I think in a few days I'll put in practice that "trick" I mentioned above and see if it's worth the trouble. In the end it's just a 50% chance of a free round which doesn't sound too impressive the more I think about it. 

And maybe also play a bit with Turning on both casters and report what I find if only for completeness' sake, but I recall the wiki mentioning it'd just end up affecting whoever ran out of charges first. Though, off the top of my head, if going with ST againt someone with only MST, I can imagine it'd be a way to spare a Spell Thrust by expending a single Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb. Heh, if that actually works it'd be nasty from SCS' side to do that, if only for the "gotcha". 

Please excuse me if I'm going too much into the details, but I'm trying to use these tests to get a good grasp of the system. I'd love a rebuttal of my reasoning against:

Quote

Stacking multiple layers of deflection and turning effects doesn't get you any more protection than the strongest one alone.

I'd argue that's not completely true for the purposes of Breach. Say that a mage has the following up, ordered by level:

* Minor Spell Deflection (Lv 3)

* Globe of Invulnerability (Lv 6)

* Spell Turning (Lv 7)

The mage cannot be Breached until all of them except Globe of Invulnerability are gone. Spell Thrust (which would get rid of Minor Spell Deflection) is not an option while Globe of Invulnerability is up, so in this case you are forced you to follow a certain order because Secret Word always works from highest levels to lowest:

(1) Secret Word against Spell Turning,

(2) Secret Word against Globe of Invulnerability, and

(3) Spell Thrust against Minor Spell Deflection.

(4) Finally, Breach.

However, if you add Spell Deflection (Lv 6) into the mix, there's a 50% chance step 2's Secret Word will dispel it instead of the of Globe of Invulnerability, forcing you to repeat the step, and buying an extra round for the caster (because for protections of equal level, which one gets dispelled is determined randomly). Would that be correct?

Cheers DavidW, have a nice evening

Oh, and another one: Breach bypasses Minor Spell Deflection, which should stop it because it affects up to 7th level spells. 

Minor Spell Turning is bypassed and that is correct, from my understanding, because it affects up to 4th level spells. 

Thanks for the explanation jmerry, that was very clear.

The only real issue then is Breach going through Spell Turning/Deflection. 

Discussing a bit with someone on SCS v30, similar behavior happened, in that higher-level protections don't protect lower-level ones.

For example, Spell Turning doesn't prevent Spell Thrust from taking down MGoI. Adding Spell Trap on top doesn't make any difference, either. 

The exception seems to be Spell Shield, which is always the first/outermost layer. 

This raises the question of whether there is an order in which protections are supposed to be dispelled, like peeling an onion, or if they can be taken down in any order.