Demivrgvs

Ball Lightning The idea was to make the ball have "protection from any creature" exactly because it shouldn't be considered a summon. I'm not sure if the ball should be dispellable, PnP isn't clear on this matter. If we decide to make it dispellable SCS would be able to counter it as it did with vanilla's ProUndead scroll I guess.

A few answers first, then I'll surprise you with special effects. Mordenkainen's Force Missiles I do share your concern, that's why I was the first saying that imo PnP damage output of this spell is crazy. It looks like most of you agree on this matter, which is good, I won't feel guilty for "nerfing" it then. Swift Etherealness Well dispel would still work indeed, I'm not trying to make the specialist Transmuter invulnerable, only to give him a mid-lvl spell to enhance his/her chances to survive without Abjuration spells. I share your concerns about OP-ness, but unlike Absolute Immunity this spell would have a major drawback (disabled physical attacks), eventually more vulnerabilities (if we decide to make certain spells still work against it), and an even shorter duration. For example if we make it last only 2 rounds the first round would be used to cast this spell and nothing else (as physical attacks are disabled, so no MMM), and you'd get only 1 round left of invulnerability, making it not much more powerful than PnP panic button (and without some of its most useful aspects). That question is: does a true PnP version (invulnerability but unable to do anything other than walking around) be appealing as a 5th lvl spell? If I could make an etheral creature heal or buff himself while ethereal and keep all other offensive options shut down then I could see a role for this spell (a sort of Sanctuary), but I don't think it's doable. I should be able to disable al quick slot items except self centered ones like potions or disable all scrolls except buffing ones, but when it comes to spells cast from spellbook I don't think I can prevent offensive spellcasting and allow self targeted buffs at the same time. I haven't changed Stoneskin's casting time because I fear it could clash with the AI. I think SCS sometime uses Stoneskin outside of pre-buff routines, and in those cases it probably expect the spell to be cast instantaneously, aka to perform a role similar to a contingency. Ideally I'd really agree with you that a spell as powerful as Stonesking. which even lasts an entire day, doesn't need to be insta casting at all (standard casting time 4 or 5 would be fine). Not to mention that you could still use it as as an instantaneous spell via Contingency or Sequencers/Triggers. It all comes down to how the AI can handle it, and I fear it cannot handle the change well. I'm not sure if that would be possible, but I actually like the fixed opposite school, if done right. Mestil's Acid Sheath I love it too. But something has to be done about the stacking problematique. The more I think about the problem, the more I come to the conclusion that Blue/Red should be merged. Ardanis already suggested it in another thread. I'd like to quote you two to bring the discussion alive again: In theory I'd actually agree with you because: - a fireshield with blue flames and cold damage makes no sense to me - having a wall of fire lessen both cold and fire damage makes sense (in fact in PnP the red one protects from cold) - having 50% resistance to both elements in the same spell would greatly improve the appeal of this 4th lvl spell imo - making it a single spell allow us to not fear staking fireshields (or to add another similar effect without worsening the current status quo) - granting immunity to insect spells a la SCS makes sense only for the fire damaging version BUT: - that would indeed classify as removing a spell - if any AI wanted to stack the two shields it won't be able to do so anymore (I fear SCS does it sometimes, doesn't it?) Well, is there a way to trick the AI? The AI can be tricked as Ardanis says, by making it cast another similar spell instead of Fire Shield (blue) whe it tries to stack the two shields, and Acid Sheath would indeed be the perfect candidate. I have to admit Ardanis points (the ones I've highlighted in red) are quite convincing... Ball Lightning Now, this is the announced surprise. I'm going to propose a solution which would make it even more close to PnP (almost identical to Spell Compedium), and an extremely unique spell. The idea is to make it create a single ball of lightning (using the current's Storm Shell animation) that the caster can then move around as he/she wishes for the duration of the spell (the AI will move it via scripts). In PnP the sphere would deal damage (up to 15d6 - save to negate all dmg) to a single target sharing its space each round, but while we are unable to perfectly replicate that, I think that making it damage anyone within 5 feet radius from it (once per round - pratically as a moving Blade Barrier) would be an even cooler concept (IWD's version of this spell pratically was a lightning based MMM with 5 ' radisu blast dmg). Obviously I'd lower the damage accordingly, and the caster won't be able to have more than 1 Ball Lightning active. What do you think? Worth trying? I really like the concept, and strikes me as something really new and unique.

It seems we are just the three of us lately (me, Arda and Law), but I'll proceede anyway...mainly because I cannot actively mod while I'm at work, but I can write posts! 5th Level Spells We actually had no space back then (the only full spell lvl), but V4 will merge all ProElem spells into one, and all Conjure Elem into one as well, turning the once full lvl into the only spell lvl I have problems filling up with good spells! o_O In theory we have 5 free spell slots right now (assuming Spell Shield is restored but Spell Immunity is finally removed), and they may even be 6 if we decide to move or remove Chaos as discussed in the main topic. Swift Etherealness Transmuters have only one spell at this lvl, Lower Resistance, so adding at least one Alteration spell is a must imo. DavidW once said that he decided to not implement any true Transmuter within SCS because of the lack of PfMW and protection spells in general. Well, this is could be the answer to it imo. Pratically this is a quick casting (a swift action within PnP), short lasting Etherealness, and within PnP it performs as a "panic button", but I don't know if it would be enough appealing as just a panic button within BG, would it? I was daring to suggest disabling physical attacks, but allowing spellcasting (e.g. we could assume that the caster blinks from the ethereal and material plane like Phase Spiders do, becoming material only for an instant while casting the spell). Long story short, this would pretty much be an uber short lasting (in PnP it's 1 round, but I'd say 2-3) Absolute Immunity+Improved Invisibility which disables physical attacks. What do you think? Is my suggestion too much? Would a true PnP version still be appealing? Edit: I can imagine a great use of a true PnP Etherealness, aka using a Contingency to make it trigger when caster is helpless (or similar states), but Resilient Sphere would perform the same way for that role, if not better! Waves of Fatigue There's little to say here, Necromancers have only one spell at this lvl, Summon Shadow, so adding at least one Necromantic spell is a must imo. This one even acts as a rather unique spell because right now fatigue is almost never used. This spell would have a medium or large AoE centered on the target, causing anyone (but I'd make it party friendly) not immue to fatigue (e.g. undead creatures are immune) to be fatigued (no save). With my suggested changes to the fatigue concept (vanilla's effects plus -2 penalty to casting speed and movement rate - though I'd remove the dmg penalty to balance it) this would be a really useful debuff spell imo. Ball Lightning We have two ways to implement this spell: a) a lightning based version of Melf Minute Meteors b) a lightning based version of Blade Barrier The first one is slightly more true to PnP, while the second one is slightly more unique (especially because mages have not a single spell working a la Blade Barrier). Which solutions would you prefer? Greater Dimension Door As per PnP, caster can use a short ranged Dimension Door each round for 1 round every 2 levels (I think we can make it last a fixed turn, if not more). The cool aspect of this spell is that even if limited by LoS it would still allow super fast travels from one area to another (which is the only thing the single use, long casting, 4th lvl DD would be used for). I know removing LoS limit from DD is cool on paper, and fine for many players, but I really cannot tolerate its quest/game breaking potential. Mind Fog AD&D version of this spell is way more balanced than its 3E one, which would be very gamebreaking within BG imo. Long story short, this would be a sort of Malison cloud spell (not a real cloud though, thus Gust of Wind shouldn't work against it imo), making anyone within the cloud suffer -2 penalty to saves against mind affecting spells and illusionary spells (ironically we can make this spell work within BG only because, unlike AD&D, SR uses saves vs. spells exclusively for mind affecting spells a la 3E). Mestil's Acid Sheath Pretty much the conjurer's version of Fire Shield, but more damaging and with a slightly better dmg type. Not my favourite spell, but we don't have better alternatives imo, and Ardanis seems to love it. Various If we end up not implementing any of the above spells, I have very few alternatives spells to suggest. I could suggest Shadow Magic (but I thought to use it as a Illusionist-only feat within KR, and it has much more potential there), Demishadow Monsters (fine imo, but I'm adding Shades at 6th lvl), Dismissal (single target Banishment, but unlike PnP we have the latter at 6th lvl instead of 7th), or Telekinesis (but within BG it would just be a more damaging Knock/Battering Ram). What do you think? Have you any better alternative in mind?

Level 9 Spells in general Ops, for some reason I thought this was already stated somewhere, but it's not. We already discussed this, even with DavidW which ended up agreeing with us and thus added "Treat mages' and priests' High-Level Abilities as innate abilities rather than memorisable spells" component to SCS expecting SR/KR to make that the standard behaviour. Absolute Immunity I guess you mean 1 turn but as a plain PfMW-like spell, right? I prefer my solution way more, and imo a long lasting PfMW is either OP (if opponents can't breach it) or not much better than PfMW (if opponents can breach it). Btw, which are these tons of short lasting immunities? I don't recall anything except PfMW, Mantles and SR's Reflected Image (which we are secretly trying to change once again). First I thought: wow! he can't be serious! that is so op! man! (just kidding) But your argumantation convinced me. That's pretty much how I felt myself when I was imagining the spell. At first I said myself "that's insane", but then I started to realize that even making it stronger, and then stronger again, it still couldn't compete with Time Stop. Black Blade of Disaster Making it bypassing Stoneskin was there when the sword was dealing only magic dmg (V2?), and I do suggested back then to make it bypass PfMW a la PnP, but it was considered game breaking by DavidW, though he said most of his mages were running ProMagicDmg or ProEnergy, hopefully keeping the sword op-ness somewhat at bay. I don't know what to do, but I do feared what Ardanis says, and what you pretty much confirm, this spell is clearly outshined by the other 9th lvl spells. It's not a bad spell, it's actually very powerful, it's just that it's hard to make it compete with things that litteraly wipe the area like Metero Swarm and Wail of the Banshee, not to mention that damn Time Stop. I'll try to see if we can do something to make this spell shine without getting ridiculously OP. I'll surely never move BBoD from its canonic lvl. Energy Drain Did you forgot I made it grant the caster "additional 20 hit points, a +4 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws, and +20% bonus to every skill"? If you ask me I'd tweak that aspect more (e.g. just noticed I have to add +4 caster lvl too), rather than making it remove even more lvls (btw, 2d4 is 5 lvls on average, not much different than the current 4). Power Word Kill Mixed feelings here. Really enjoy the "the current hp points are used for it's determination" feature.I don't understand, that aspect of the spell remains there, current hp points are still used to determine if the target dies instantly with no save. How else would you improve the spell? Do you think vanilla PW:Kill can compete with the other 9th lvl spells as it is now? Shapechange 'Nuff said! Never really used the other two forms, though. One can't balance the forms among themselfs, because the creatures are varyingly strong either. That's ok. Ideally I'd like all forms to perform a role. For example the Greater Werewolf should be better than the Iron Golem in melee terms against warriors (higher apr, huge regeneration rate) but BG is so full of spellcasters that I guess you always end up chosing the Iron Golem anyway. You've provoked it: Beholder. *cover* But if I remember right you said it would be to difficult to implement (and I believe it is). Vampire would be another cool form. Another of those INSANE ideas would be a dragon form... *just kidding*Ahahah, no comment. Beholder is not fully doable because rays would only work via scripts, but even then I doubt th AI is prepared to face it. Vampire form would be an laternative to the mind flayer I guess, regeneration and undead immunities instead of magic resistance. Let's say that at least it makes sense and it's doable. Spell Trap As long as the spell works as per vanilla, aka as a detectable spell with giant animation, neither the AI nor the player will ever cast a spell againt Spell Trap. I see two solutions to that:a) remove the animation (doable) and make it uber fast to cast (aka make it a counterspell rather than a spell protection) b) male it absorb AoE spells I don't know which solution is best, neither which one players would prefer, but I do know that we do have to fix an issue which gets even worse if we opt for b), the well know infinite loop. The only way to fix the infinite spells issue imo is to make Spell Trap more similar to its PnP version, Absorption. PnP 1d4+6 spell levels in our case should be 8 lvls because unlike PnP within BG even 1 spell lvl left can still absorb a 9th lvl spell completely, and this way we can prevent the infinite spell loop without harming the spell effectiveness too much (it can still absorb a Finger of Death, grant you a 7th lvl spell back, and then still block a 9th lvl spell! - though I don't know right now what you get back from absorbing a 9th lvl spell with only 1 spell lvl left to absorb). What do you think? Spellstrike So, it would remove all spell protections (which are undispellable) and than instead of removing specific ones too we make it cast a dispel/remove magic based on caster lvl? Time Stop Just wnated to say that my goal isn't to make all the other 9th lvl spells as powerful as TS, just appealing enough to make them valid alternatives. TS will always be the most powerful 9th lvl spell, but keep in mind that TS alone doesn't do anything except buying you time, you need to use other spells to actually do something (unless you are a fighter-mage), whereas for example Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm can destroy the battlefield with a single spell slot. TS has the highest potential, but in a twisted way the other 9th lvl spells can be considered somewhat cheaper. Not going to happen. Wish Do you know what that really means?

As promised, behold the... 9th Level Arcane Spells Absolute Immunity This is a 9th lvl spell for Ao's sake, let's make it worth that spell slot! I suggest to make it grants what its name suggests, absolute immunity, for 4 rounds. By that I mean at least immunity to all forms of damage (V3 Absolute Immunity + Protection from Energy), but I'd include a much wider amount of immunities (e.g. Free Action + Death Ward + Mind Blank). If you're thinking that would be OP, think again: Time Stop does the same and much more. During Time Stop everyone except the caster is frozen (he can even hit in melee with 100% chance), there's neither protection against it (there's not a single item or spell granting immunity to Time Stop) nor counter, whereas Absolute Immunity would still be removable via Breach or Pierce Shield. During Absolute Immunity all opponents would still be active, able to counter it (or for example tear down other spell protections), if not in the worst case find cover and wait a bunch of rounds for AI to expire. Time Stop will still be superior in every possible way except casting time, as Absolute Immunity would have the noticeable advantage of having almost instant casting time instead of a full round, and 1 round duration. What do you think? Note that Abjurers don't have access to Time Stop, this would pratically be their version of TS. Bigby's Crushing Hand If you accept my suggested changes for the other Bigby spell I hink this is one is more or less fine as it is. Very high dmg potential with what I consder the best dmg type (crushing) and a chance to disable the target once each round. Black Blade of Disaster I seriously need feedback on this spell, because balancing this type of spell on paper is really hard, if not impossible. It's easy to make this spell not worth a 9th lvl spell slot, as much as it's easy to make it OP in the right hands. Chain Contingency Man I do fear this spell becoming an innate ability available for free after every rest, but then I realize that it's pretty much the same if it remains in the spellbook as in the best case it just takes 1 spell slot (albeit a 9th lvl one) and in the worst case it's free anyway because you can just rest again to regain both CC and its stored spells while keeping both CC and its stored spells. Last but not least, each and every SCS mage already get it for free, thus it's just a matter of making it fair for players too. Energy Drain Its V3 version should already be quite powerful. Freedom The ultimate "cure status" spell. I don't know how many of you used this since I buffed it so heavily, but at least on paper it doesn't look like something I would only use via scroll. Memorizing a bunch of Break Enchantment or similar spells probably is more than enough most of the times, but archmages may decide to have one Freedom memorized for the worst encounters. Furthermore, the possible addition of spells such as Mass Polymorph and Mass Domination would actually make SR's Freedom have a much higher game-saving potential imo. Gate I guess I have to at least add a Baalor here to match SCS behaviour. Ideally I'd like to make this spell more like PnP, allowing to summon non-evil cretures too for good or neutral aligned casters, but it requires A LOT of planning and work. Imprisonment I think that Imprisonment should actually get a save, as bypassing magic resistance, working against pretty much any creature, and having permanent duration which requires another 9th lvl spell to counter, should be enough to make it the most effective single target disabling spell. Meteor Swarm After what I did to Flame Arrow it has been suggested a couple of times to make Meteor Swarm as per PnP, 4 fireballs fired consecutively. If you ask me I prefer the current solution, as well as its current concept and animation (a trus swarm of meteors, not just a bunch of fireballs), and if I want a multi-hit fireball I just store 3 Fireballs within a trigger/sequencer. Am I wrong? On a side note, to make it more effective I thought about making half of the dmg physical, but I fear doing so would make its concept slightly turns into a conjurations rather than an evocation. Anyway it shouldn't be a big deal even if ProFire is enough to counter it considering 4th lvl Death Ward counters Wail of the Banshee and PW:Kill, Chaotic Commands can counter PW:Kill (yeah, again) and an eventual Mass Domination, Dimensional Anchor could counter Imprisonment, and so on. What do you think? Power Word Kill Instead of having PW:Kill affect only targets with less than 60 hit points I'd make it kill any target regardless of hp, allowing only those with more than 60hp a save to avoid death. Targets with less than 60hp won't be allowed a save as before. Shapechange No changes needed imo. This spell has a devastating potential, most of which lies in its incredible Iron Golem form, but even turning into a Mind Flayer to just get its sky high magic resistance while retaining spellcasting is a great option imo. This spell could only get better by adding a Lich form, but that would be insane imo (pratically a long lasting GGoI + Mind Blank + various immunities - with movement rate as only drawback). Otoh, let me know if you think we should really add one particular form, or that one of the existing ones is not appealing compared to the others. Spell Trap Its true PnP name would be Absorption. I'm still not sure what to do with this spell, but as it is right now it doesn't offer anything a lower lvl spell protection does imo. Spellstrike This should be the ultimate spell removal. Back then DavidW convinced me to not make it really devastating because casters had almost no protection against it, but now that we have Spell Shield into the equation again I think we don't have to restrain ourselves anymore. Even if we make it remove all spell, combat and specific protections, or if we decide to add here an Improved Dispel effect, as long as Spell Shield can counter one Spellstrike I think everything would be fine, wouldn't it? Time Stop I still believe that allowing physical attacks during TS makes it unbalanced (ironic that after suggesting it myself to Sikret I was then accused to copy that suggestion from him, but nevermind), and that 3E TS is much more balanced. That being said, I guess there's nothing we can do without messing with the AI (e.g. SCS exploits this at least a couple of times, such as Irenicus encounter in hell), and I can probably live with TS remaining the most powerf 9th lvl spell as long as the other choices are almost as good and less exploitable. Wail of the Banshee Many players actually consider this spell almost OP within SR because of its -6 save penalty. Now, I can simply make it use a lesser penalty but making the problem imo is that without a secondary effect its main one deserves to be hard to counter, so I think at least -2, if not -4. Speaking of secondary effects, I know it would not be as per PnP but what about adding a secondary deafness effect? Wish See Limited Wish. Infinite potential, but very complicate to implement.

Mantles Without DS it simply has no means to. Tell you what, let's just make 8th a mass PFMW and remove 7th Mantle completely, to save the headache. Mmm, that means IR's improved Cloak +2 will need to be tweaked a little. That's pretty much what I was tempted to do, but if we really accept my crazy suggestion about Improved Mantle than we may as well keep Mantle as a fair PfNW+PfMW (you know, PfMW in theory doesn't work against non-magical weapons). The improved 8th lvl version would be pretty much the same but extended to those who stay very close to the caster the whole time. Anyway, I'd prefer to not decide this with just my vote, yours and Lawlight's one. Maze We used it so often we don't even remember how it currently works. I already made it faster to cast (5 instead of 8) and I already added it some range (medium instead of touch - or short, I don't remember). It seems like I'm not so stupid as I think and I already tried to improve it as much as I could. It may. Although I would increase maximum too.Sorry, I meant both min and max indeed, actually even just the maximum duration could be enough as it reaises the average value. What I don't know if this really matters, because most AI opponents shouldn't have sky high INT anyway, and I guess Maze is more often used vs. warriors rather than Mages, because a mage vulnerable to Maze is a dead mage (aka just cast him PW:Stun a damaging spell, or whatever else for that matter! ). No? Imprisonment You know what, gimme the time to go back at home and I'll post all 9th lvl spells too, so we have all arcane spells on the table and we can freely speak of Imprisonment too.

Mantles Well, assuming SCS is installed we have everything we need (+3, +4, all), and a non-SCS AI is so stupid that it really doesn't matter afaik (does vanilla AI care about checking target's weapon immunity?). As Lawlight says the real problem is that whatever we do won't change the real problem: mantles are pointles copies of PfMW. I just suggested it because at least they shouldn't be outshined by their lesser cousin anymore, but I'm surely not throwing out a party to celebrate how cool these non-PnP spells are. Interesting, but... unbalanced maybe? Coupled with the above tweak it is almost a mass Absolute Immunity!Well, not even close to what Absolute Immunity will be. Anyway, a Mass version of a spell often is just 3 lvls more than the original one, thus a Mass PfMW at 8th lvl wouldn't even be so absurd, and I'm not really suggesting a Mass PfFM but rather a sort of PfMW aura, which protects the caster and allies within 10 feet from him. That being said, I was the first to say my suggestion was daring and possibly unbalanced. Btw, I surely wouldn't shed a tear if we end up deciding to kill one of the two mantles and make the other one PfNW+PfMW (scaling or not). On a side note, we should stop comparing Absolute Immunity to these spells, it's only true rival will be Time Stop. muahaha Jokes aside, what I'm saying is that at least AI won't be just another PfMW. Maze What I do fear here is that it would become too appealing compared to Imprisonment.Exactly what I thought, and what I answered myself. Not that I consider Imprisonment a really viable spell choice, or a balanced spell (3E added it a save for a reason, with no save it's the most broken spell ever). In fact I think that Imprisonment should actually get a save, as bypassing magic resistance, working against pretty much any creature, and having permanent duration which requires another 9th lvl spell to counter, should be enough to make it the most effective single target disabling spell. Mmm...I can be persuaded to make it a standard action (casting time 5 within SR), but conceptually making it instant seems strange. For some reason it really doesn't look like an instant spell, no? Conjurations in general are not instantaneous. Would tweaking Maze's minimum duration make any difference? Symbol of Death That wouldn't fix the fact that ANY other symbol spell is more appealing than this one right now. I do prefer to keep it at 8th lvl but making it worth that lvl. Incendiary Cloud I don't get the concept behind a fire damaging spell increasing the fire dmg its target suffer. I would have understood if you suggested to make Grease increase fire dmg within its AoE.

4th Level Spells In theory we had little to no space here, but we can gain quite a few spell slots by making the two Fire Shield spells a single one for example, by merging Spider Spawn into MSIV (everyone seems to hate gnolls anyway), by moving Dimension Door elsewhere, and eventually by keeping only one between Farsight and Wizard Eye (they do the same thing). Anyway, let's see what we could add here, as always in order of my preference. Phantasmal Killer A true must have imo, pratically Spook on steroids. We can easily make it work a la PnP: target must save vs. spell (at -2 penalty perhaps, or following Spook's progression) to disbelieve the phantom, if that save fails another save vs. death is required (this time with no penalty imo) to avoid death. If the second save is successful the target still takes 3d6 points of non-lethal dmg (aka stunning dmg). Vitriolic Sphere Acid dmg is heavily underrepresented, and this is a quite classic spell (4th lvl within AD&D, and 5th lvl within 3E). This is pratically an Acid Arrow which lasts less but deal more dmg, with even a small blast radius. Well, the two versions of this spell (AD&D and 3E) actually are much more different than it seems at first look. AD&D one only deals very little dmg to secondary targets within 5 feet (and only once on the first round), whereas 3E sphere has full effect on all targets within its 10 feet splash, though to balance that they made the sphere allow a first save to avoid all damage. I'd probably make it as per AD&D, what version do you prefer? Mordenkainen's Force Missiles This would pratically be Evocation's version of Flame Arrow, firing Magic Missiles instead of arrows, and each with a small blast radius. For some reason PnP dmg (the same within AD&D and 3E) seems kinda OP to me, as each force missile deals up to 2d4 dmg (no save) + 25 dmg to target and anyone within 5 feet (save to negate), and you get up to 7 missiles. I guess the "save to negate" instead of "save for half" is what should keep it balanced (ironically that's pretty much what I suggested to do for FA), but even 14d4 (no save) alone is kinda significant, and on a failed save 174 magic damage is a disintegration spell!! o_O A 1st lvl Shield spell blocks this spell ok, but I doubt it's enough to balance it considering only mages have such counter - for everyone else this pretty much seems an Improved Disintegrate. Am I missing something? On a side note, now that ToBEx should allow us to make subspells to work on contingencies/triggers, I'm thinking of making both Flame Arrow and this spell work a la SI, keeping the current "random targets" version available for contingencies/triggers (the other wouldn't work), while allowing the other version to work as vanilla's Wand of Lightning, aka allowing to select the target of each arrow/missile. Enervation This is a very canonic spell, and kinda unique too considering only a single 9th lvl spell works in a similar way. It would be pretty much as per PnP: no save allowed, target TEMPORARILY loses 2 levels. In PnP you regain lost lvls after up to 15 hours but I wouldn't make it more than 8 hours (at least you can rest to regain them). Ardanis suggested to make it replace the currently unappealing Contagion, but while it makes sense, and it may allow to see this spell used by the AI without a new SCS update, I feel it's a pity to remove one of the very few sources of disease (the only other spells causing disease are Dolorous Decay and Symbol of Weakness). Dimensional Anchor It's not a true must-have spell, but it's rather canonic. The spell would be simple, immunity to maze-like effects (such as Shadow Door's secondary effect, Maze itself, Imprisonment) and teleporting effects (Teleport Field, which won't allow a save again). Allowing at least one counter to Imprisonment is important imo (though we can also consider Freedom), but if we end up not having space for it I think that even granting it only to clerics could be fine (they already are dedicated to buffs and protections). Animate Ghouls Within AD&D this would be called Undead Summoning II. Anyway, it's simple, now that 6th lvl Create Undead summons Skeleton Warriors I'd like to keep those lovely ghasts summonable in some way, but we may try to find another way if we don't have space here.

Fog Cloud I believe you didn't understand my point then :)I prefer both - reducing LOS gives advantage to those outside of cloud, while II effect - to those within it. The spell doesn't have any definite bonus or penalty, but is neutral, so it is up to the caster to decide whether the benefit will outweight the penalty or not.I'd like to know what other players think about making creatures within the fog semi-invisible. One more thing, implementing it would make this spell the ultimate anti-thief spell as true invisibility would be impossible, not even via hide in shadows...it really doesn't convince me. Deafness I thought about two effects in one spell.Man I was tempted to add Bestow Curse to priests and have it work this way (though at 3rd lvl), but I have to admit that moving Blindness to its PnP lvl and merge it with Deafness makes sense. Another point taken, especially considering Evokers already have 4 spells at this lvl, covering almost all dmg types, including physical one with Battering Ram. @Ardanis, on a side note, do you think making bard's spellbook (not to mention paladin and ranger ones) a little more unique belong to SR? I think re-arraging the spellbooks (e.g. removing Animate Dead and similar spells to paladins, making multi ranger/cleric not use all druid's spells, and so on) belongs to KR, not SR. Don't you agree? And if yes, shouldn't an eventual bard-only Soundburst be added only by KR and not SR? Snilloc's Snowball Swarm Actually there's this very spell within IWD, but afaik this is one of those spells using an hardcoded projectile which I cannot import to BG. Beware, new 4th lvl spells are coming!

I'll post 8th lvl spells too hoping it doesn't make you forget what's left to discuss regarding lower lvl spells, but instead makes the whole picture more clear. 8th Level Arcane Spells Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting In theory it shouldn't deal magic dmg but lower hit points, but I guess it's fine as it is as the AI uses Pro(Magic)Energy to counter it. Bigby's Clenched Fist We currently have two almost identical Bigby spells (ironically vanilla's 8th lvl version was even better than its 9th lvl variant), so I propose to turn this spell into the very similar PnP Ice Claw spell, but renaming it as 4th edition Bigby's Icy Grasp. The spell would more or less remain the same, but it would inflict cold dmg and freeze the target, making both dmg type, hold type and possible counters (e.g. ProCold) different from its bigger cousin Crushing Hand. Then, considering that the two Bigby spells would still be too close and very similar and that PnP Ice Claw is a 7th lvl spell in PnP, we might move this spell down to 7th lvl, especially if we decide to add here the classic PnP Polar Ray. Ghostform On paper this spell should be quite powerful, offering many defensive properties and immunities without hampering spellcasting in any way, but I'd need feedback from actual playtesting. Did anyone find himself using this spell with success? Greater Globe of Invulnerability I know it's not a true PnP spell, but I like it as it is, and it makes my wizard feel like a lich for a moment. Improved Mantle Leaving aside that I always considered both Mantles redundant (why they added these two non-PnP spells is beyond my comprehension), this spell may simply get slightly increased duration (+1 round). I just had a crazy idea regarding Mantles, but I haven't studied it, thus don't insult me please, I don't know if it would be unbalanced (probably not) or mess with AI detectable spells. Long story short, what about making Mantle effect increase with caster lvl up to grant full immunity to weapons? Except with RR's Cyric encounter PfMW already does that, thus I don't see a balance problem, and Mantles uses very high spell lvls. We also have the problem of making two almost identical spells different and both appealing despite having only 1 lvl difference, and I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?). Else we can just live as we always did, pretty much ignoring these two spells and always picking PfMW instead of them. Incendiary Cloud Its school could be changed to Conjuration a la 3E (it belonged to both Conjuration and Evocation within AD&D, and in fact this is the only cloud spell imo which at least looks like it could be an evocation). Balancing this spell is incredibly hard, but ideally it deserves to be even more devastating than Horrid Wilting imo considering it's not party friendly. I'd like each cloud to perform a slightly different role but in PnP this is pretty much a damaging Fog Cloud and that's how it currently works. That being said, while Cloudkill and Acid Fog are mid-high lvl spells and deserves to not be overlapped (Stinking Cloud too remains a different and valid option imo) I don't think it's a problem for IC to "overlap" the eventual addition of Fog Cloud. Has anyone used it enough to give me some feedback? How does the AI handle it? Maze I never completely understood this spell, it indeed has its utility, but I personally require more from an 8th lvl spell to memorize it (it's just a Resilient Sphere with no save imo). Anyway, there's little or nothing we can do here, so I just hope it's fine as it is. Pierce Shield I guess this spell is fine. It's pretty much Breach on steroids, as unlike Breach it can bypass any spell protection (except the restored Spell Shield), even removing the most powerful one, and it works against both liches and rakshasas (plus SR's GGoI). Power Word Blind See PW:Stun. Protection from Energy No changes needed. Simulacrum I think we made it a balanced spell. Not exploitable anymore but still incredibly powerful. Summon Fiend I'd like to add Cornugon to make player's version of this spell match SCS behaviour. Symbol of Death Ironically the only Symbol which really belongs to 8th lvl is the least appealing one. The easiest way to make this spell appealing would be to make it more like Dungeon & Dragons Online, aka a "Mass Enervation Trap". The hardest one (not 100% sure it's doable) would be to make it a continuos effect instead of instantaneous once triggered, thus turning the area into a field of death where for x rounds everyone within the area must make a save as soon as his/her hit points are lower than 60, or die. Symbol of Stunning I'd move it at 7th lvl as per PnP, making it match priest's spell lvl. Symbol of Weakness I'd move it at 7th lvl as per PnP, making it match priest's spell lvl.

Fog Cloud So you still prefer this solution instead of limited line of sight? Ray of Fatigue - Power Word Fatigue With 5 rounds duration it shouldn't be OP imo. Vanilla's Doom was more powerful (-2 to saves is what makes Doom shine, not to mention Doom affect ANY type of creature unlike most enchantment spells and an eventual fatigue effect) and lasted twice as much. So no Soundburst? What would be the point of Deafness? No one would ever cast it instead of Blindeness, not to mention SCS tweak to True Seeing (which we'll have to match) makes even Blindness a much less effective spell. Gedlee's Electric Loop Thus you'd vote for a single save a la IWD instead of PnP's two in a row saves? Snilloc's Snowball Swarm This pretty much sums up my opinion. 3rd Level Arcane Spells We have two free slots here, and I had no troubles deciding which spells I wanted to add here. Animate Dead - Animate Skeletons This is truly a must. Necromancers not having a single undead minion to summon before 5th lvl spells is ridiculous imo, especially considering within Forgotten Realms setting they actually have an Undead Summoning spell at each lvl. It will match the current cleric's Animate Dead spell, summoning skeletons early on, and a couple of greater ones later on, but no Skeleton Warriors. Icelance This spell rocks imo. I just hope I can make it use a decent animation. I'd keep its classic 5d6 dmg (no save), either 100% cold dmg a la IWD or 2d6 piercing dmg + 3d6 cold dmg a la PnP, but I was thinking to modify its stunning effect a little. Instead of "stun" opcode I'd use a "hold" one which doesn't count as a mind affecting effect. It all depends on how we think this spell is supposed to work, but I think the target isn't stunned because of the dmg, but impaled by the lance itself, thus a physical paralyzation and not a mental one. This would make the lance effective against pretty much any target (e.g. even undead though most of them are immune to cold dmg), but I can make the spell work via shell system to make sure that while the dmg may still work against any target, certain targets won't be paralyzed by the lance (e.g. all incorporeal beings - so an incorporeal undead is probably completely immune to it). Anyway, let me know what you think.

Chaos If you and Ardanis think it is possible to let the AI use Confusion instead of Chaos, I would definitely prefer a) (with the "5 HD less than the caster[...]" feature). Regarding Eyebite: Wow, thats a funny one. Quite like the idea.Well, it's you and Ardanis for a) right now, let's see what other players think. I have only one doubt about this solution, how does Symbol of Insanity compare against Symbol of Stun? The former is one lvl higher in PnP but it actually seems slightly weaker to me. The confusion is permanent, but stunning your targets even for less time is often more reliable (though making opponents mages stop casting and bashing each other with their staves is fun). That being said, if it has Chaos's HD based no save feature then SoI gains a really valuable tool (I still cannot believe that within AD&D Chaos had no save for anyone with just 1 lvl lower than the caster instead of SR's 5). Absolute Immunity What do you plan for Absolute Immunity?Soon we'll discuss 9th lvl spells, be patient. Let's just say I want it to really work as its name suggest. Tenser's Transformation I seem to recall Ardanis making a similar suggestion, but while balance-wise it may work, I don't like it much conceptually. For some reason I never considered TT a weak spell, and SR made it even better, but I'd really like to hear more opinions on this matter. If we want to replace the "no spellcasting" drawback with something much less drastical, I'd probably prefer to add a fatigue effect at the end of the transformation. Btw, if we opt for any of those solution I think we do have to make one more tweak, make TT not stackable with any other alteration spell such as Polymorph Self, Ghostform and Shapechange. Elementals Well, water elementals aren't even supposed to be summonable outside of water surfaces...but considering it seems we want to somewhat conform our elementals to aVENGER's ones I'll think about it. Genies Sometimes I think most players don't realize how much work there is behind summons, not to mention spellcasting ones. Trust me it takes ages to plan (e.g. I have to check the various PnP versions - write down possible implementations - compare them to other summons to balance them) and as much to realize (e.g. cre, weapon, scripts). End of my rant. Long story short, I wouldn't mind working on them if I had so much spare time, but let's say it's not my top priority considering we already have TONS of summons to work on. We'll see.

Snilloc's Snowball Swarm Yeah, as I said the main reason is that, though on a side note it also makes the spell usable by the AI (SCS doesn't like to use unfriendly AoE spells because the AI has troubles handling them). That being said, while Snowball Swarm was born exactly as a lesser Fireball, I do feel making it at least somewhat different wouldn't hurt. Actually as an unfriendly cold-based fireball with half AoE and half dmg it wouldn't really be appealing imo (at least AD&D version actually had a larger AoE), Fireball is just one lvl higher and it would make this spell pointless. Am I wrong? Perhaps it's just me, but wouldn't it be better if those creatures were vulnerable to cold dmg in the first place instead of certain cold-based spells deal 2x dmg and other cold-based attacks work normally? Resist Fire/Cold There was no previous discussion. In vanilla you had 3rd lvl ProFire granting 80% resistance, now ProFire grants complete immunity but it's a 5th lvl spell, and within BG1 you don't get 5th lvl spells until the very end of the game. I'm suggesting to add this spell to offer a cheaper lesser protection for lower lvl mages.

Sorry for the two posts in a row, but this was too big to be an edit of the old one. Don't dismiss the previous post! 2nd Level Spells With Detect/Know Alignment moved at 1st lvl we have 4 free spell slots. You'll notice I have pretty clear ideas regarding which spells I'd like to see here, but I have quite a few doubts instead regarding their exact stats. Monster Summoning II Right now the planned creatures for this MS spell are Kobolds, and later on a Kobold Shaman or Kobold Witch as their leader. Gedlee's Electric Loop I'm going to make it pretty much identical to PnP. Anyone within 5 feet from the caster (thus pretty much only those adjacent to him/her) takes up to 5d6 points of electrical dmg, with a save vs. breath to halve the dmg. Some players were concerned about its stunning effect being OP but I discovered that unlike IWD version within PnP only those failing the first reflex-based save must save vs. spell to avoid being stunned for 1 round. What do you think? Snilloc's Snowball Swarm Unlike PnP I'd make it party-friendly because the only technical way to implement it imo is to make it cast one "snowball" (the same projectile used by vanilla's Winter Wolf ranged breath attack) against each target within the AoE. Within AD&D this spell dealt up to 8d3 dmg wihtin 30 feet radius, while 3E made this spell deal up to 5d6 points of cold dmg, with a 10 feet radius AoE. I was opting for the smaller AoE, but even 15-20 feet may be fine if we want a compromise, depending on the dmg output we decide to use. Speaking of which, I'd suggest to use the xd4+x formula used by Cone of Cold for "consistency", but considering the party-friendliness it should probably deal average dmg like 4d4+4 (very slightly less than both PnP versions). Let me know your opinions. Resist Fire/Cold It may sound a weak choice but I think this is a must have considering you don't get ProElemental Energy until 9th caster lvl, thus leaving BG1 mages with no elemental protection for almost the entire game. Not to mention Abjurers currently have only Resist Fear at this lvl. One daring thought, should the spell be somewhat changed into a sort of Resist Energy? Fog Cloud vs. Obscuring Mist Surprise!! Well, technically Fog Cloud is a 2nd lvl spell, while Obscuring Mist is 1st lvl, but follow the links and you'll surely notice they are pretty much the very same spell. I mention it for completeness but imo, regardless of which name we prefer, it's better to make it a 1st lvl spell considering we already have Stinking Cloud at this lvl, and even Web fills a similar role. Am I wrong?

Ok, it seems we have two clear winners, Monster Summoning I and Dimension Step, plus Fog Cloud if implementable. Ice Dagger seems to be the least appealing instead, together with Ray of Fatigue. Fog Cloud Interesting indeed. I do prefer to try this out instead of going for Ardanis suggested II-like state to prevent direct spellcasting (perfect concept, but I really dislike the implementation). Ice Dagger That's pretty much one of my suggested solutions (btw, your spell is Ice Knife - but the concept is clearly the same), and the one I like the most. Ray of Fatigue - Power Word Fatigue I do thought about somthing similar. I first considered the option of merging them into Blindness/Deafness as per PnP, but quickly realized that no one would ever take it over Blindness. Still, I would feel sad for losing Sound Burst, and the idea was to find a way to keep Deafness but making it usable instead of removing it. I have to re-chck AI scripts too to see if we can move Blindness and eventually remove Deafness (I think RR uses it). On a side note, Soundburst could remain as a bard-only spell as I planned to slightly re-arrange their spellbooks within KR (e.g. no necromancies and no evocations a la 3E like). I'll think about it and let you know, in the meanwhile I'll be back with 2nd lvl new spells asap.

I was only proporsing the Chaos->Symbol of Insanity change, because they have nearly identical effect.SoC uses different sort of effect (cloud), if we'd like we could rename it to Maddening Whispers, to be closer to PnP. But SoI and SoC are pretty much the same spell, they even share the confusion opcode. Chaos should have been a 6th lvl spell to not make Confusion look like the idiot's choice imo, that's probably why 3E just removed it, but there's no point on moving it (to make the more canonic Confusion appealing) and then have it share the spell lvl of another almost identical spell. I think we can: a) change Chaos into Symbol of Insanity and make it replace non-PnP Sphere of Chaos b) move Chaos to 6th lvl instead of adding the new Enchantment spell I was going to suggest, Eyebite c) simply remove Chaos If we really have no consensus on any of the above solutions then I guess we'll have to leave things unchanged. This is one of those cases where I'd prefer democracy to win over my dictatorship. GoI's type is undetectable, and SCS only refrains from casting 3rd spells when it sees it.So I guess making the AI use Confusion instead is fine.

Mantle Sure thing, though Absolute Immunity is going to be epic anyway. Mordenkainen's Sword IIRC aTweaks makes something killable with dispel magic, either mordy of nishruu.I did the same within SR. My main doubt is that the AI isn't trained to dispel Mordy. Chaos I'll put down my thoughts, but then I'd really appreciate if I don't have to make such a decision on my own, aka discuss it please. I guess Ardanis is actually suggesting to "merge" the two spell's concepts and probably remove Sphere of Chaos. I obviously don't mind too much about Sphere of Chaos because it never existed in PnP (though I kinda like what I did with it), while Chaos unfortunately existed within AD&D, though I really cannot imagine why considering Confusion is pretty much the same thing. Let's say that conceptually I do agree with Ardanis that Chaos is really redundant, not only because of Confusion but also because at the same lvl you have Hold Monster which in theory fills the same role. That being said I'm concerned regarding the AI, because right now it almost always pick Chaos over Confusion for obvious reasons. We could make the AI use Confusion instead, but only if SCS is trained to cast it regardless of Globe of Invulnerability (in theory Confusion is still working against all other party members, but vs solo mages it would be awkard). Otoh we could simply make the AI use Symbol of Insanity, but only if Chaos isn't used within sequencers, as they allow up to 6th lvl spells, and SoI would be an 8th lvl one. Regarding Sphere of Chaos vs. Symbol of Insanity (aka Chaos + trap usability) I don't think one of the two clearly outshine the other. Sphere of Chaos: + targets must save make a save each round - target is affected only 1 round for each failed save + causes many different effects - targets immune to one mind affecting opcode are often immune to all of them (e.g. undead, or creatures protected by Chaotic Command) Symbol of Insanity: - targets must make a save only once + target is permanently affected on a failed save + target with 5 HD less than the caster are not allowed a save (this is a Chaos feature, but I guess we'd keep it) - uses only one type of effect, confusion, which is great against spellcasters but not always optimal vs warriors + can be set as a trap before combat

This topic will be dedicated to discuss which spells deserve to be added and what they'll do. Which of the following spells would you prefer? How would you implement them? 1st Level Spells We're making Find Familiar an innate spell for obvious reasons, and Reckless Dweomer will be automatically assigned to Wild Mage's spellbook to not waste a generalist mage spellslot. So, we currently have 20 pre-existing spells (21 if we opt to move Detect Alignment here), leaving 4 (or 3) free spell slots before reaching the 24 spell limit. Monster Summoning I I know AD&D actually had MS serie of spells start at 3rd lvl, but this is really a must for Conjurers imo. I planned to make this spell summon 1 Gibberling per caster lvl, up to 5 Gibberlings at 5th lvl. Fog Cloud/Obscuring Mist Different name, but pretty much the same spell. I'm not sure about this spell because its most important feature (reduced line of sight) seems to be a problem for the AI. In theory I planned to have everyone inside the cloud suffer -4 penalty to melee hit rolls, -10 penalty to hit rolls with ranged attacks, and limited LoS. Without the latter feature this spell would turn the affected area into spellcaster's dreamland, but if we can at least reduce the LoS a little (e.g. by half) I think it could be fine. I'd really like to know DavidW and aVENGER's opinions on this matter. Dimension Step/Dimension Hop As its name suggest this would pretty much be the current SR's Dimension Door (instant casting but limited by line of sight). DD currently is very underpowered for its lvl, and even without LoS limit it still wouldn't be worth a 4th lvl spell slot imo (am I wrong?). Ray of Fatigue - Power Word Fatigue AD&D had Ray of Fatigue at 1st lvl and Ray of Enfeeblement at 2nd, vice versa 3E. A slightly different way to implement this spell would be 3E PW:Fatigue, and I'd probably slightly favor it as Necromancers will get its "mass" version, Waves of Fatigue. In both cases I'd use a standardized fatigue effect which I was going to suggest for KR. My idea was to take vanilla's fatigue but: * keep -2 penalty to attack rolls and AC * remove -2 penalty to damage to make it more different from Enfeeblement and Doom * add -2 penalty to casting speed (casters need to be affected in some way!) and movement rate Ice Dagger I wanted to implement it only to increase the number of cold-based spells, but I have to admit it wouldn't add much to the mix. Within PnP it pratically is a weaker Magic Missile (single hit, up to 5d4 dmg), which also deals 1 point of dmg to creatures within 5 feet from the target (great eh?). I can imagine various ways to implement it, but none of them is truly unique imo: a) PnP version - inferior to MM in every possible way b) as per PnP, but less dmg to first target and more dmg within AoE c) a lesser cold version of SR's Flame Arrow d) as per PnP but secondary slow effect on target instead of 1 point of dmg within 5 feet e) completely changed into a 1st lvl cold version of druid's Flame Blade Assuming a) is pointless, b) and c) aren't great choices imo (especially because they will both be outshined by 2nd lvl Snilloc's Snowball Swarm), and while d) seemed the better option to me I then realized it pales in comparison to Chromatic Orb (which at 10th lvl can cause slow too amongst other things - and V4 will probably let you select Orb's effect!). In the end, the only solution that would provide a somewhat unique addition is e) imo. What do you think? 2nd Level Spells With Detect alignment moved at 1st lvl we have 4 free spell slots. You'll notice I have pretty clear ideas regarding which spells I'd like to see here, but I have quite a few doubts instead regarding their exact stats. Monster Summoning II Right now the planned creatures for this MS spell are Kobolds, and later on a Kobold Shaman or Kobold Witch as their leader. Gedlee's Electric Loop I'm going to make it pretty much identical to PnP. Anyone within 5 feet from the caster (thus pretty much only those adjacent to him/her) takes up to 5d6 points of electrical dmg, with a save vs. breath to halve the dmg. Some players were concerned about its stunning effect being OP but I discovered that unlike IWD version within PnP only those failing the first reflex-based save must save vs. spell to avoid being stunned for 1 round. What do you think? Snilloc's Snowball Swarm Unlike PnP I'd make it party-friendly because the only technical way to implement it imo is to make it cast one "snowball" (the same projectile used by vanilla's Winter Wolf ranged breath attack) against each target within the AoE. Within AD&D this spell dealt up to 8d3 dmg wihtin 30 feet radius, while 3E made this spell deal up to 5d6 points of cold dmg, with a 10 feet radius AoE. I was opting for the smaller AoE, but even 15-20 feet may be fine if we want a compromise, depending on the dmg output we decide to use. Speaking of which, I'd suggest to use the xd4+x formula used by Cone of Cold for "consistency", but considering the party-friendliness it should probably deal average dmg like 4d4+4 (very slightly less than both PnP versions). Let me know your opinions. Resist Fire/Cold It may sound a weak choice but I think this is a must have considering you don't get ProElemental Energy until 9th caster lvl, thus leaving BG1 mages with no elemental protection for almost the entire game. Not to mention Abjurers currently have only Resist Fear at this lvl. One daring thought, should the spell be somewhat changed into a sort of Resist Energy? 3rd Level Spells We have two free slots here, and I had no troubles deciding which spells I wanted to add here. Animate Dead --> Animate Skeletons This is truly a must. Necromancers not having a single undead minion to summon before 5th lvl spells is ridiculous imo, especially considering within Forgotten Realms setting they actually have an Undead Summoning spell at each lvl. It will match the current cleric's Animate Dead spell, summoning skeletons early on, and a couple of greater ones later on, but no Skeleton Warriors. Icelance This spell rocks imo. I just hope I can make it use a decent animation. I'd keep its classic 5d6 dmg (no save), either 100% cold dmg a la IWD or 2d6 piercing dmg + 3d6 cold dmg a la PnP, but I was thinking to modify its stunning effect a little. Instead of "stun" opcode I'd use a "hold" one which doesn't count as a mind affecting effect. It all depends on how we think this spell is supposed to work, but I think the target isn't stunned because of the dmg, but impaled by the lance itself, thus a physical paralyzation and not a mental one. This would make the lance effective against pretty much any target (e.g. even undead though most of them are immune to cold dmg), but I can make the spell work via shell system to make sure that while the dmg may still work against any target, certain targets won't be paralyzed by the lance (e.g. all incorporeal beings - so an incorporeal undead is probably completely immune to it). Anyway, let me know what you think. 4th Level Spells In theory we had little to no space here, but we can gain quite a few spell slots by making the two Fire Shield spells a single one for example, by merging Spider Spawn into MSIV (everyone seems to hate gnolls anyway), by moving Dimension Door elsewhere, and eventually by keeping only one between Farsight and Wizard Eye (they do the same thing). Anyway, let's see what we could add here. Phantasmal Killer A true must have imo, pratically Spook on steroids. We can easily make it work a la PnP: target must save vs. spell (at -2 penalty perhaps, or following Spook's progression) to disbelieve the phantom, if that save fails another save vs. death is required (this time with no penalty imo) to avoid death. If the second save is successful the target still takes 3d6 points of non-lethal dmg (aka stunning dmg). Vitriolic Sphere Acid dmg is heavily underrepresented, and this is a quite classic spell (4th lvl within AD&D, and 5th lvl within 3E). This is pratically an Acid Arrow which lasts less but deal more dmg, with even a small blast radius. Well, the two versions of this spell (AD&D and 3E) actually are much more different than it seems at first look. AD&D one only deals very little dmg to secondary targets within 5 feet (and only once on the first round), whereas 3E sphere has full effect on all targets within its 10 feet splash, though to balance that they made the sphere allow a first save to avoid all damage. I'd probably make it as per AD&D, which version do you prefer? Mordenkainen's Force Missiles This would pratically be Evocation's version of Flame Arrow, firing Magic Missiles instead of arrows, and each with a small blast radius. For some reason PnP dmg (the same within AD&D and 3E) seems very OP to me, as each force missile deals up to 2d4 dmg (no save) + 25 dmg to target and anyone within 5 feet (save to negate), and you get up to 7 missiles. I guess the "save to negate" instead of "save for half" is what should keep it balanced (ironically that's pretty much what I suggested to do for FA), but the 7x 2d4 (no save) alone is kinda significant, and on a failed save 174 magic damage is a disintegration spell!! o_O A 1st lvl Shield spell blocks this spell ok, but I doubt it's enough to balance it considering only mages have such counter - for everyone else this pretty much seems an Improved Disintegrate. Am I missing something? On a side note, now that ToBEx should allow us to make subspells to work on contingencies/triggers, I'm thinking of making both Flame Arrow and this spell work a la SI, keeping the current "random targets" version available for contingencies/triggers (the other wouldn't work), while allowing the other version to work as vanilla's Wand of Lightning, aka allowing to select the target of each arrow/missile. Enervation This is a very canonic spell, and kinda unique too considering only a single 9th lvl spell works in a similar way. No save allowed, target TEMPORARILY loses 2 levels. In PnP you regain lost lvls after up to 15 hours but I wouldn't make it more than 8 hours (at least you can rest to regain them). Ardanis suggested to make it replace the currently unappealing Contagion, but while it makes sense, and it may allow to see this spell used by the AI without a new SCS update, I feel it's a pity to remove one of the very few sources of disease. Dimensional Anchor It's not a true must-have spell, but it's rather canonic. The spell would be simple, immunity to maze-like effects (such as Shadow Door's secondary effect, Maze itself, Imprisonment) and teleporting effects (Teleport Field, which won't allow a save again). Allowing at least one counter to Imprisonment is important imo (though we can also consider Freedom), but if we end up not having space for it I think that even granting it only to clerics could be fine (they already are dedicated to buffs and protections). Animate Ghouls Within AD&D this would be called Undead Summoning II. Anyway, it's simple, now that 6th lvl Create Undead summons Skeleton Warriors I'd like to keep those lovely ghasts summonable in some way, but we may try to find another way if we don't have space here. 5th Level Spells We actually had no space back then (the only full spell lvl), but V4 will merge all ProElem spells into one, and all Conjure Elem into one as well, turning the once full lvl into the only spell lvl I have problems filling up with good spells! o_O In theory we have 5 free spell slots right now (assuming Spell Shield is restored but Spell Immunity is finally removed), and they may even be 6 if we decide to move or remove Chaos as discussed in the main topic. Swift Etherealness Transmuters have only one spell at this lvl, Lower Resistance, so adding at least one Alteration spell is a must imo. DavidW once said that he decided to not implement any true Transmuter within SCS because of the lack of PfMW and protection spells in general. Well, this is could be the answer to it imo. Pratically this is a quick casting (a swift action within PnP), short lasting Etherealness, and within PnP it performs as a "panic button", but I don't know if it would be enough appealing as just a panic button within BG, would it? I was daring to suggest disabling physical attacks, but allowing spellcasting (e.g. we could assume that the caster blinks from the ethereal and material plane like Phase Spiders do, becoming material only for an instant while casting the spell - ironically PnP also have Improved Blink at this lvl). Long story short, this would pretty much be an uber short lasting (in PnP it's 1 round, but I'd say 2-3) Absolute Immunity+Improved Invisibility which disables physical attacks. What do you think? Is my suggestion too much? Would a true PnP version still be appealing? Edit: I can imagine a great use of a true PnP Etherealness, aka using a Contingency to make it trigger when caster is helpless (or similar states), but Resilient Sphere would perform the same way for that role, if not better! Waves of Fatigue There's little to say here, Necromancers have only one spell at this lvl, Summon Shadow, so adding at least one Necromantic spell is a must imo. This one even acts as a rather unique spell because right now fatigue is almost never used. This spell would have a medium or large AoE centered on the target, causing anyone (but I'd make it party friendly) not immue to fatigue (e.g. undead creatures are immune) to be fatigued (no save). With my suggested changes to the fatigue concept (vanilla's effects plus -2 penalty to casting speed and movement rate - though I'd remove the dmg penalty to balance it) this would be a really useful debuff spell imo. Ball Lightning The idea is to make it create a single ball of lightning (using the current's Storm Shell animation) that the caster can then move around as he/she wishes for the duration of the spell (the AI will move it via scripts). In PnP the sphere would deal damage (up to 15d6 - save to negate all dmg) to a single target sharing its space each round, but while we are unable to perfectly replicate that, I think that making it damage anyone within 5 feet radius from it (once per round - pratically as a moving Blade Barrier) would be an even cooler concept (IWD's version of this spell pratically was a lightning based MMM with 5 ' radisu blast dmg). Obviously I'd lower the damage accordingly, and the caster won't be able to have more than 1 Ball Lightning active. Greater Dimension Door As per PnP, caster can use a short ranged Dimension Door each round for 1 round every 2 levels (I think we can make it last a fixed turn, if not more). The cool aspect of this spell is that even if limited by LoS it would still allow super fast travels from one area to another (which is the only thing the single use, long casting, 4th lvl DD would be used for). I know removing LoS limit from DD is cool on paper, and fine for many players, but I really cannot tolerate its quest/game breaking potential. Mind Fog AD&D version of this spell is way more balanced than its 3E one, which would be very gamebreaking within BG imo. Long story short, this would be a sort of Malison cloud spell (not a real cloud though, thus Gust of Wind shouldn't work against it imo), making anyone within the cloud suffer -2 penalty to saves against mind affecting spells and illusionary spells (ironically we can make this spell work within BG only because, unlike AD&D, SR uses saves vs. spells exclusively for mind affecting spells a la 3E). Mestil's Acid Sheath Pretty much the conjurer's version of Fire Shield, but more damaging and with a slightly better dmg type. Not my favourite spell, but we don't have better alternatives imo, and Ardanis seems to love it. Various If we end up not implementing any of the above spells, I have very few alternatives spells to suggest. I could suggest Shadow Magic (but I thought to use it as a Illusionist-only feat within KR, and it has much more potential there), Demishadow Monsters (fine imo, but I'm adding Shades at 6th lvl), Dismissal (single target Banishment, but unlike PnP we have the latter at 6th lvl instead of 7th), or Telekinesis (but within BG it would just be a more damaging Knock/Battering Ram). 6th Level Spells Another almost full lvl which gets new free slots becuase of various re-arragements such as making Contingency an innate, merging the various elementals in a single spell, and eventually disabling Spell Deflection (because of a huge overhaul of this kind of spells). Necromancers apparently needed a second spell at this lvl (SR previously added Create Undead here to give them at least one spell), but they'll get Symbol of Fear. In theory I'm also adding Monster Summoning VI (MSIV within AD&D) but it will simply replace Wyvern Call. We have 3 free slots, and eventually a 4th one if we decide to get rid of the classic but useless Stone to Flesh. Shades Illusionists currently have only Mislead at this lvl, and adding illusionary summons really is a must have imo, to the point where I actually don't know if this spell alone is enough. Anyway, making the summoned creatures balanced won't be easy, but in theory they will be powerful phantom warriors, with a "glass cannon" concept. These semi-real illusions should have valuable offensive prowness, but few hit points. Furthermore I was thinking about making them vulnerable to True Seeing somehow, but I'm not sure how. Surely I don't want TS to destroy them on sight, but for example they could look like normal real warrior unless affected by TS, at which point they may look like vanilla's images (with the blue color pattern indicating they are not real) and perhaps lessened effectiveness. Eyebite Enchantment was another school in vanilla with no 6th lvl spells (together with Necromancy). I "added" PW:Silence but I want a second spell, and I haven't found any appealing one except this, which for some reason become a Necromantic spell in 3E, but correctly was an Enchantment one within AD&D. Technically it would work a la Polymorph Self/Shapechange, and upon casting it the caster will have new innate abilities usable at will, once per round, for the duration of the spell. These abilities will work using the standard gaze projectile, and simulate the most classic gaze attacks, thus causing effects such as fear, confusion, or charm upon the target. Otiluke's Freezing Sphere Evokers have only one spell here, despite it being a really good one (Chain Lightning). OFS pratically is a more damaging cold version of Fireball, with smaller AoE (15' instead of 20', though BG's Fireball actually has a 30' radius). As in PnP I really don't see how this spell and it's 15d6 dmg can compete with Chain Lightning (the latter deals 5d6 less dmg to secondary targets, but 5d6 more to primary one, and has a big friendly AoE instead of a small unfriendly one), not to mention it was even worse within AD&D. Even 5th lvl Fireburst would beat it imo, as OFS would be the same thing, not centered on the caster, but with much longer casting time. If you ask me, I'd keep it unfriendly but I would add a secondary effect related to its name, thus either a long lasting slow-like effect or a short lasting freeze effect (e.g. hold frozen for 1 round on failed save). I'd probably prefer the latter. Improved Slow This could fill the eventual last free slot if we remove Stone to Flesh. Unlike Improved Haste this still is a "mass" spell, which is a good thing because else it would have to compete with both Disinterate and Flesh to Stone! There's little to say here, this would pretty much be a slow spell, but with a heavier save penalty (-6 in PnP) causing targets to move even slower (at a ninth of their normal rate - which means movement rate 1 in general, thus the minimum possible), and suffer even worse penalties (-8 penalty to AC and thac0 within PnP). 7th Level Spells From this spell lvl we don't have to worry reaching the 24 spells per lvl cap because even looking into all PnP sources I haven't found so many great spells which could really add something new. Both Symbol of Stun and Symbol of Weakness will probably be here, and the lesser version of the two Bigby's spells might too. We still have a bunch of free slots, and the number may even increse depending on other decsions (e.g. if we ever decide to merge the genies). Monster Summoning VII Deciding which creatures assign to the various MS spells is difficult; MSVI and MSVII are no exception and also have a very tough competition (genies, elementals, and so on, not to mention Mordy!). I'll discuss all the summoning spells in a dedicated topic, but the more likely candidates for this spell currently are Umber Hulks. Conjure Greater Elemental Ardanis suggested to move greater elementals here and I kinda agree, not only for balance reasons (they weren't OP, but they surely outshined all other summons at the same lvl), but also because CGE actually is a 7th lvl spell within AD&D. Prying Eye/Watchful Eye Adding at least one Divination spell here should actually be the top priority, but the problem is that divination spells are few, and generally useless outside of PnP. In an ideal world I'd love to put here Greater Arcane Sight (Ardanis is convinced we can implement it, I'm not 100% sure), but within BG it has very little use imo because of that damn text feedback which ruins Mislead's intended role and tells the player each and every spell is cast (though SCS recently followed my suggestion to at least hide prebuff text messages). Without it the only other PnP option probably is something like Greater Prying Eye, which is similar to AD&D's Watchful Eye (a 7th lvl spell from the Dark Sun setting). Now, this spell is supposed to be Wizard Eye with True Seeing, but now that we're making TS work more like PnP (aka not dispelling illusionary protections/creatures on sight) such solution would make it another "great PnP spell but bad BG spell". What could make it a great "summon" (it shouldn't count as a summon imo) is granting it thief's detect traps and detect illusions skills (though I would probably not assign it a 100% chance for balance reasons). Long story short, I suggest to move here 4th lvl Wizard Eye (we have Farsight there performing the very same role), and improving it as much as we can. What do you think? 8th Level Spells This spell lvl was very lightly populated, and unfortunately even within PnP there isn't much choice at this lvl. I'm going to suggest quite a few of non-PnP spells because of this, though they already exist within either IWD or NWN, making them acceptable imo (much like BG's Sphere of Chaos, and surely way better than BG's silly Mantles). Mind Blank I guess it doesn't need presentations. It is an Improved Chaotic Commands, granting even more immunities, and protection from Divination spells as well (such as Knoe Opponent and Oracle), but more importantly it will last 8 hours, making it an obvious day-long buff a la Stoneskin for mages who can afford it. Monster Summoning VIII The difficult part here will be to find summons enough appealing to fit such a high spell lvl but not OP. I was thinking to suggest using salamanders here, but even Umber Hulks can fit this slot if we make them 8HD creatures as per PnP. Conjure Elder Elemental For some reason I'm not too much into it. Unlike the other three versions of this spell it doesn't exist within PnP, and I don't like that Druids would be left behind as they are limited to 7th lvl spells and Greater Elementals (though they then get princes via innate HLAs). Create Greater undead This is not a mandatory spell, as Necromancers already have two spells here (one of which is the terrific Horrid Wilting) but I guess most of you would like it. I'm not sure which BG creatures could fit this. We could use mummies and a Greater Mummy, or a single powerful Boneguard. Lightning Ring Evokers absolutely need new spells here, especially if we make Incendiary Cloud a Conjuration as all other clouds. This one existed within both AD&D and 3E Spell Compendium and it's truly powerful imo. The spells is kinda unique, as it's similar but still different to both Fire Shield and Blade Barrier, with a little of Call Lightning too. Its implementation would be the following: caster is surrounded by electricity, becoming immune to electrical damage, and once every round (twice within 3E) a 5d6 lightning bolt is discharged, targeting a random opponent (within PnP you can direct the bolts). If we think it's needed we can add a fire shield-like dmg when struck effect, but the spell can probably be fine either way. Polar Ray If we decide to move Bigby's Icy Grasp at 7th lvl than this spell is a must imo, else we can just keep the ice-tweaked Bigby spell. This is another classic spell though most PnP players conside it underpowered because of the required touch attack to hit roll. I'm not sure how balanced it would be, but in theory BG implementation would probably be a ray inflicting up to 20d6 points of cold dmg with no save. Else we could raise the damage and allow a reflex save (to replace the ranged attack roll), but then the spell would just be a Disintegrate spell with different dmg type. Mmm... Polymorph Any Object or Mass Polymorph V3 added Ghostform, but we had no Alteration spells at all in vanilla, and thus I'd like to add a 2nd one. PaO is likely one of the most devastating PnP spells ever created, but implementing it is an almost impossible task imo, as in theory it can do infinite things, such as turning a pebble into a Stone Golem, a party member into a different creature type (e.g. even a celestial!), and so on. We thought to limit it to x type of uses, but even then it's difficult to decide which ones, the power lvl limits and then write down an appropriate description to justify why the spell does that on not that. Mass Polymorph is obviously less unique, but implementing it would be a simple task. Symbol of Insanity We have only a single Enchantment spell for this lvl (a Power Word), and I really cannot find a 2nd one. As discussed before, I'd opt to not use Charm Monster because within BG engine it would just be Mass Domination, thus deprecating the latter which is instead the ultimate enchantment spell imo (so powerful that 3E hugely nerfed it, turning it into a single target Dominate Monster). The only spell I found is Symbol of Insanity (pratically is BG's Chaos usable as a trap/symbol), and Ardanis suggested Maddening Whispers (pretty much SR's Sphere of Chaos). As discussed in other topics, I really don't know what to do, especially because SoC would outshine SoI by a mile imo. So, what would you do? Remove Sphere of Chaos (which never existed in PnP but is cool) and add Symbol of Insanity, or just move SoC at 8th lvl? Solipsism Illusion is another school with just one 8th lvl spell. I really couldn't find anything within PnP, except 3E Greater Shadow Evocation, and thus I turned to IWD and NWN where I could only manage to find a 7th lvl spell, Solipsism. The concept is cool imo (the caster manipulate the senses of the target so that it perceives itself to be the only real creature in all of existence and everything around it to be merely an illusion) and to fill an 8th lvl spell slot it could work as a illusion based Mass Feeblemind. What do you think? Executioner's Eyes The most difficult task ever, making Divination school great within BG. The only PnP spell which could work here would have been Moment of Prescience, but it cannot be implemented, so I turned once again to IWD, and found there the fan favourite Executioner's Eye. This spell may not look great at first sight (allies get +4 to attack rolls and +20% chance to score critical hits) but actually has a tremendous potential (it was a 9th lvl spell within IWD for a reason), especially if the caster has many warriors on his side and/or summons. 9th Level Spells We really don't need many spells here, I only want each school to have at least one spell, if not two when possible. Foresight Once again Divination school have not a single spell, but this time we do have a classic and potentially great one. I really never understood how PnP version could fit a 9th lvl slot (do you? am I missing something?), but I think we can simply improve upon its base concept, pretty much as Refinements mod did. Weird Illusion school too had not a single spell at this lvl. I know Weird performs a similar role to WotB, but this spell is a must have imo, and it's the most canonic 9th lvl illusion spell since AD&D. Shadow Clone This is the next best suggestion I could find. I changed its name but this is just NWN Shadow Simulacrum, which is probably inspired by PnP Ice Assasin. Long story short, this is a Simulacrum spell usable on others, though I still don't know if that "others" will mean any target or just party members (balance wise I'd say the latter, as cloning a dragon might be a little over the top - not to mention cloning opponents may not be technically easy for allgiances). Even then, being able to create clones of your best party members should be enough to make this spell appealing imo (though an in-game helmet offers almost the same, with few limitations, once per day). If you have a better alternative suggestion let me know, but afaik the only real alternative is 3E Shades, aka Shadow Conjuration on steroids. Well, on second thought even that spell woundn't be bad. Monster Summoning IX If I ever manage to make Gate summon non-evil creatures too this spell will have to compete with it. Nevertheless I think this is a mandatory spell. Mass Domination I did not suggested Mass Charm for 8th lvl to leave room for this spell, which is the ultimate enchantment spell imo. In theory we could also have Mass Hold Monster, but I really don't see how it could compete at this level, am I wrong?

While I'm still thinking about a handful of lower lvl spells (such as PfNW) let's add to the discussion 7th lvl ones. In the meanwhile I've also updated the first post, which will always serve as a recap of the whole discussion until it will become a definitive list of changes from V3 to V4. Control Undead Have anyone used it since V3 buff? Its vanilla version was pointless imo, but the current version should be kinda game-changing against undead armies because of the "no save" feature. At 14th lvl this spell can take control of Skeletal Warriors without allowing them a save, and at higher lvls not even Death Knights can resist it, though in both cases you have to face their sky high magic resistance. So, is it fine as it is? Delayed Blast Fireball I think it's fine as it is, as a double damaging Fireball with higher save penalty (-4 instead of -2) and trap usability. Compared to vanilla it has gained quite a lot of importance imo because of its increased damage (20d6 instead of 15d6) and Horrid Wilting nerf (though the latter still is vastly superior unless fighting undead creatures). Finger of Death The only thing to discuss here is its save penalty. I think that the obvious change from -6 to -4 is enough, but let me know if you think it's still too heavy. Khelben's Warding Whip Let's start by saying one thing: vanilla's spell has nothing to do with its PnP version! Then also keep in mind that we can't remove its current ability (no problem it is still fitting imo), and that its true PnP form is neither fully achievable (its parry ability would be a sort of PfMW, but not really) nor completely appealing (immunity to Bigby spells? oh yeah great!). So, I'd start by making it an Evocation as per PnP (it's an energy whip much like Mordy sword) and adding a small but cool PnP feature by making it dispel Mage Armor and Shield (remember Breach doesn't work against them anymore). These surely aren't game changing tweaks, but for a pure Invoker removing Shield to then cast tons of Magic Missiles (and V4's Mordenkainen's Force Missiles) can still be handy, not to mention we already have tons of abjuration spell removals, thus making this one an evocation is a good twist imo. The whole anti-Bigby thing doesn't strike me as particularly appealing, and doesn't even fit the concept imo, but if you want it just because "it's PnP" fine with me. After that there's the "parry" feature which we can't implement, but if you ask me it's not a big deal. If we really think this spell needs another boost while keeping the concept intact I'd say it could be either: - remove one specific protection (e.g. ProEnergy) - perhaps only from 2nd round - small magic damage when the whip strikes the target each round That being said, the spell was appealing even in vanilla imo (because of its duration) so I'm fine even with just the small PnP restyle mentioned above. Limited Wish Many things could be done here, but I don't know if we have time and will to really mess with this spell. Mantle What do you guys think of its V3 version? Did it become somewhat appealing compared to the mighty PfMW? Mass Invisibility It should be fine as it is. With DI and TS not dispelling it anymore this will become a good party buff imo. Mordenkainen's Sword Ideally this spell should not be counterable by Banishment, but I guess the AI is not trained for such a change. At least Banishment will make the whole concept slightly more acceptable than vanilla's Death Spell (yeah, let's kill a non-living energy sword with a death effect). Disintegrate should be the real counter to it, but as long as Banishment is working against it I guess such additional feature will be mostly unsued, unless the caster happens to have no more memorized Banishments. In PnP Dispel Magic too works against it, but I'm not sure about implementing it (and handling caster lvl checks could be difficult). Power Word Stun Targets with 90+ hit points will now be affected, though only for 1 round (incidentally this is pretty much how Dungeon & Dragons Online handled it). For the bigger picture instead I do think we should move this spell at 8th lvl and put here PW:Blind Instead (as per 3rd edition). Now that SCS makes True Seeing counter blindness (forcing us to do the same) there's really no way PW:Blind can even remotely be superior to PW:Stun (not to mention it already was inferior imo). PW:Blind now is pretty much useless against casters (is there any caster not running TS?), and even if it can still be a powerful spell against warriors, countering it is extremely easy. Prismatic Spray This spell utterly rocks imo since we removed the aspects which were making it unappealing (e.g. vanilla's petrification effect). I think that even with save penalties capped at -4 it will still be really great. The only thing which prevents it from becoming the best spell ever is that you have to handle its cone AoE, and the randomness of its effects, because else it has a really outrageous potential (up to 120 dmg or insta-kill, feeblemind, perma-stun, and so on - on multiple targets with a party friendly AoE!). Project Image I'd like to make it more close to PnP, but I'm not sure to which extent (e.g. we cannot make it use the original caster's spell slots when casting spells). Its V3's invisibility tweak aimed at making it somewhat usable in the middle of a fight as a sort of Mislead spell, and making Truee Seeing not dispel illusionary clones on sight should make this an even more viable use of PI. Ideally there are tons of things I'd like to do. I'd like making it dispel itself if too far from the caster, but I don't want to mess with SCS scripts, thus I'd leave this feature out. I'd also like to make it a true illusionary clone (unlike Simulacrum which is semi-real) unable to buff itself with non-illusionary spells (e.g. Stoneskin). This is doable, and it could help to balance the immense power this spell still has despite the huge nerf (back then when it could also use scrolls and items it was outrageously OP). What do you think? Is it worth a try? Protection from the Elements I guess it's fine. Most casters will probably go for ProEnergy instead, but it's still a good cheaper alternative considering magic damage is very rare. Ruby Ray of Reversal I'll try to make this spell more close to its PnP version. For example it will revert polymorphed targets to their true form, making it a great counter when facing Shapechange's Iron Golem, but also good to cure an ally from Polymorph Other or Flesh to Stone (note that transmuters don't have access to Break Enchantment). Within AD&D it also removed target's illusionary protections, but I'll let you decide. It should also work as a Knock spell, as well as allowing to dispel a Web, Grease or Entangle effect on the target, but these are kinda pointless features considering Knock is a 2nd lvl spell and that the mentioned effects last 1 round anyway (3E made RRoR completely destroy those spells in the area, but that is not doable afaik unless we can create a sort of custom clearair.2da - and it's not clear to me why a single target spell should affect an area). Spell Turning We'll discuss this elsewhere, though some of you already know what we have in mind. Sphere of Chaos Once again, let's make it clear, this spell never existed in any PnP version. Considering that I'd like to move here Symbol of Stun as per PnP, and that SoC is so powerful I'd move it to 8th lvl. The only two PnP spells I found which resembles SoC are AD&D Symbol of Insanity and 3E Maddening Whispers, both of which are 8th lvl. Summon Death Knight I love this spell, simply because I think Death Knights are uber cool. Other than adjusting its behavior as we planned to do for other similar uncontrollable summons (e.g. necromancers could have a higher chance to control them) I think the spell is more or less fine. Summon Djinni & Efreeti We'll probably end up making a Summon Genie spell which then let you pick the one you want. I was thinking about adding the earth-related Dao, but it doesn't add much imo. Summon Hakeashar I thought about adding it a small anti-magic aura to make it more different than just a slightly better Nishruu, but even now the spell can be a very appealing choice for any spellcaster imo.

Protection from Normal Weapons We could probably make PfMW serie of spells remove PfNW when cast, but this doesn't sound great anyway imo. I have to think about it... I'll be back on this matter. Fine with me, though it certainly doesn't change much this spell's appeal. This spell is competing with things such as Breach and Protection from "x element" spells, as well as classic choices such as Chaos or Shadow Door, it needs much more than being able to be cast on others and/or a higher duration to become a really viable alternative. Breach You mean the are places where the AI would prioritize Breach if it detects Mage Armor? Feeblemind Most SoA/ToB boss, liches, fiends... quite a lot of people Obvisouly, feeblemind and flesh to stone are really more usefull than a pathetic Hold monsters vs Big and semi big boss , especially in ToB. I have personnally stoped to use feeblemind and flesh to stone coz I found these spell too powerfull and not fun. Well, liches are actually immune to Feeblemind (if they are not it's an oversight), but you made me want to re-check how often the immunity to feeblemind comes up. I still believe it's usability is really low, but it's a welcome surprise to see someone actually thinking this spell rocks right now, it makes me want to re-study the spell to see if I was wrong. I'll let you know.

Hold Monster vs. Rest of the World Actually I was saying Feeblemind and Flesh to Stone are inferior to other spells of similar or inferior lvl, such as Hold Monster, but not only. Feeblemind is also inferior to both Chaos (a Hold Monster slightly less disabling but with larger AoE) and Domination (obviously better than Feeblemind because taking control of a target is even better than disabling it). Now, I do thought about using save penalties to slightly offset this, but it's not a true solution, and it can actually cause more mess than benefits. For example, making Domination use a -2 penalty and keeping Feeblemind at -4 may give at least one small advantage to the latter, but not enough to balance it imo, and then Domination will start to look unappealing compared to 3rd lvl Dire Charm (though that is also fault of BG engine not making charm effects work as they should). Then again, making Hold Monster use -2 would make it inferior to Chaos, which would have a much larger AoE and higher penalty (in fact SCS already uses the latter much more than the former), and I surely cannot nerf Chaos considering its -4 penalty is pretty much the only thing it has over Confusion (though SR at least added the other HD-based feature). Your suggestion makes sense indeed when simply comparing Hold Monster to either Feeblemind or Flesh to Stone, but in a bigger picture HM really doesn't seem like it should be nerfed imo. Breach I'm not sure how the AI would handle this (e.g. I guess SCS AI gives for granted a target doesn't need multiple Breach spells to become really vulnerable).The AI would cast repeated Breach spells in that case... Much as if you re-protected yourself after being breached. It's not a huge issue since Breach would still always remove the highest level combat protection (a protection from weapon spell) as well as the highest level specific protection (probably Protection from Energy), which is what both AI and players are usually trying to dispel, to allow use of weapons and direct damage spells.What I'm saying is that I don't know if SCS (or AI in general) is prepared to need twice as much memorized Breach spells. But I may get your point now: if we manage to keep the # of required Breaches the same (because we make it still dispel enough protections to work almost as before) then we could achieve a similar result of my suggested tweak (aka lower lvl protections such as Mage Armor and Fireshields may survive a Breach spell). The question is, is this achievable without risking to create some mess for the AI? I'd like to know aVENGER or DavidW opinion on this matter. Anyway, I kinda like the idea of making certain spells not affected by Breach, and perhaps making other spells counter them, regardless of whether or not we opt for the above discussed tweak. Actually its true PnP name, Pierce Any Shield, would fit this solution even more imo (it can still remove all protections imo, it's a 8th lvl spell after all!). Sunfire This spell actually existed in al-Qadim setting, but it was 4th level and capped at 10d6 (otherwise identical to the BG2 version).Well, that's a different setting (which is more than enough to ban it), and it's far from identical to BG2 version anyway considering it also has a different concept (it isn't necessarily centered on the caster). Al-Qadim's Sunfire is a fireball spell in all aspects (including range), the only difference is that the caster is immune to it. Conceptually speaking Evokers don't manipulate natural ("real") sources but magical ones. Generally only conjurers and abjurers have spells which bypasses mr, though exceptions do exist. I don't see why we should try to justify a vanilla's bug (aka self targeted spells ending up bypassing mr) only because it was convenient. Against player's Skeleton Warriors the AI already have THE counter, as Banishment (aka vanilla's Death Spell) can destroy multiple SW without even allowing a save. A higher lvl caster could actually make a nasty Pierce Magic + Control Undead (no save vs a 9HD undead) combo, but it's probably too much expensive to counter a single 6th lvl summon. Feeblemind Ok, we have 1 case over 100 where Feeblemind is more viable than Chaos or Hold Monster, but what about the other 99 cases? Yeah, actually it's supposed to have no penalty to its save unless cast against an arcane spellcaster (-4 vs them), and to be weaker against divine casters (they make the save with even a +1 bonus!). So, unless we want to nerf this spell even more I'd leave this PnP feature out. Why would nerfing Breach make Feeblemind more appealing than before? Skull Trap Leaving aside that having a kit disadvantaged in at least a couple of situations seems fitting (that's the point of kits, specialize to become better in certain situations and worse in others), I'm simply applying PnP rules here (strange how many times I'm accused to do the opposite eh?). With the current rules Enchanters should probably rely on conjurations to fight undead creatures. Summoned elementals for example are a great choice as they are immune to almost all abilities used by undead creatures (e.g. charm, hold, fear and disease effects). You can easily use spells such as Acid/Flame Arrow instead of Skull Trap imo, and at higher lvls you have multiple options. If you have access to Necromancy school you don't need vanilla's Horrid Wilting to fight undead creatures, you just need the cheaper and more effective Control Undead (watch them destroy each other then, or bash them as much as you like while they stand there helpless because of your control over them). Btw, V4 Vitriolic Sphere will indeed be another good option to fight undead creatures for those without access to Evocation spells, and I'm also making Minute Meteors belong to Conjuration school (in PnP it belongs to both schools). On a side note, within KR I'm re-adjusting opposition schools to make them have some actual sense (how the hell Divination and Illusion are not opposite?!?). I was going to suggest Enchantment to be opposed to Necromancy, while Evocation could be opposed to Conjuration.

Contingency, Chain Conteingency & Spell Triggers: They already belong to the Universal school within SR, so there's only one choice to make, innate or not. I agree with you this is a huge change that deserves to be optional, the only problem is that having or not having this spell in the spellbook also affect the # new of spells we can introduce (afaik even with scrollable spellbook hack the display at lvl up is still limited to 24). Btw, I really wasn't expecting someone could be against this change! I do love PnP, but the way they work there doesn't work for BG imo. In PnP you would memorize them in one of those days where you don't need all your spells (which is very common unless your DM is making a dumb campaign with no story), whereas in a PC game like BG the frequency of fights is so absurdly high that everyday you end up erasing a memorized spellbook before breakfast and rest again before lunch. A better system with such context imo could have been making contingencies/triggers work as a metamagic feat (e.g. if you want to memorize a Stoneskin as a contingency effect you memorize it using a higher lvl spell slot), but I'm digressing too much, I guess you got my point. Flesh to stone : I actually consider Disintegrate slightly more "save or die" than FtS, especially when used by the AI. Only dragons and very few (or extremely lucky) characters can survive Disintegration's 40d6 damage on a failed save, while a petrified character can be cured by an ally. That being said, both spells are pretty much "save or die" spells in most situations. I was comparing it to Hold Monster (5th lvl) and not the uber cheap Hold Person (2nd/3rd lvl spell), so:- neither Minor Globe Of Invulnerability nor Globe Of Invulnerability work against it - Immunity to hold probably is more common than immunity to petrification, but not much - Free Action grants immunity to it yes, but ProPetrification within BG actually is ridiculously cheapear (1st lvl) - leaving aside that in PnP Hold Monster actually has a higher save penalty, within SR V3 they are almost the same (-4 and -5) Add to the above things that Hold Monster is cheaper and can affect multiple targets while bypassing protections such as II and Spell Deflection/Turning/Trap! Long story short, Flesh to Stone is outstandingly inferior to Hold Monster imo. Stone to Flesh : From PnP: "This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses." I haven't invented anything here, I've just turned a useless BG spell (Remove Curse) into a really great PnP one. I think the misleading thing is that enchantment seems to suggest it's limited to enchanter's spells (charms and compulsions), but "enchantment" is a much wider term (e.g. a flaming sword is "enchanted" but it has nothing to do with the Enchantment school). I do thought about it, but it would still be an extremely situational spell, and I would also need to change its concept/name or turn it into a completely invented spell (why a stone to flesh effect would have any effect on an iron/adamantine golem?). Breach : I'm not sure how the AI would handle this (e.g. I guess SCS AI gives for granted a target doesn't need multiple Breach spells to become really vulnerable). Btw, afaik targets rarely have tons of protections up (e.g. 1-2 specific protections, 1 PfMW-like spell and depending on situations 1-2 combat protections) so if we want a similar change to matter we would have to limit the amount of dispelled protections even more imo. The point of my suggested change is to keep Breach almost unchanged to not not mess with the AI, but what I like the most actually is to incentive the use of spells such as Mage Armor or even Fireshields. Sunfire : I turned an invented spell into a PnP spell while keeping the pre-existing concept almost identical. I'm actually quite proud of it. Regarding the neverending 3E vs AD&D thing, it should be clear to anyone that Revisions mods follow a sort of 2.5, using either 2nd or 3rd edition depending on which one seems the better for that particular spell, item, creature, and so on. Feeblemind : Ehm...see my reply there then. Jokes aside, this case is even worse imo because there's really not a single case where I'd pick Feeblemind over Hold Monster right now. Saves penalties You are right, I should probably talk more about save penalties, but in most cases there's very little to say. Save penalties are capped at -4 now, I generally round down -1/-3 penalties to 0/-2 respectively (more close to AD&D PnP), and then we have the unique cases which have to be discussed individually. I tend to mention the save penalty when I think it really matters, but I'll try to mention it more.

MS III vs Summon Shadows They are certainly not, and even without ogre-mage.My test was simple: a few unprotected mage (AC between 6 and 10), doing nothing (moving a bit at best). An enemy cast 2 shadows spells and stop casting. There were 4 shadows attacking my casters. Yet, they standed for about 3 minutes, not worrying about these weak shadows that seemed to have very hard time to hit their target. I can assure you that ogres don't have this problem, although I haven't tested it recently. This sounds very strange, an unbuffed shadow should hit an unproteced mage with AC 6-10 with a 65-85% chance. Multiple shadows would cause the mage to be hit at least once per round if not more... Which known bug? I don't remember it. Btw, I'll take a look at the scripts when I get back home because right now I don't even remember how I scripted them. Well, actually that is the point, but only as long as they cannot be completely ignored. Btw, this whole discussion reminds me why I previously thought to discuss all summons on a separate topic. Handling summons is an extremely more difficult task than normal spells, there's really too many variables.

Summon Shadow On paper it's really difficult for me to understand why many of you state MSIII clearly outshine SS. Shadows' THAC0 is indeed bad (13), but not much worse than ogres' one (11 - though enraged they get a small bonus), and in terms of staying power shadows win hands down even against enraged ogres with their immunity to non-magical weapons, 50% physical resistance and immunity to cold damage, not to mention all the immunities that stem from being both undead (e.g. immunity to death effects, poison, ...) and incorporeal (immunity to entangle, polymorph, disintegration, ...). If you ask me, shadows are less "easy to use", but have much more potential than ogres when combined with the right buffs or when taking advantage of their immunities (e.g. make them fight your opponent in an area affected by spells such as Web, Ice Storm or even Cloudkill). So, if I had to guess could make MSIII the clear winner for you I'd say it must be the "progression" of the 2 spells. The Ogre Mage is summoned in addition of the 2 ogres (within PnP limits the Ogre Mage alone would probably be too much for MSIII, but we all seemed to agree PnP MS spells are extremely underpowered), and he can buff his 2 enraged companions, making it a real game-changing upgrade for this spell. Otoh, Wraiths are summoned in place of the Shadows, they are better but not by a huge margin, and you even end up having 2 summons instead of 3. So...should I increase the number of shadows/wraiths summoned? Are we sure it's not MSIII which is too powerful because of the Ogre Mage? If I add to our confrontation lesser elementals I fear that a Lesser Elemental can almost surely match, if not outmatch, 2 ogres (unless we add buffs such as Haste in the equation), but when the Ogre Mage enters the ring MSIII wins again. Am I wrong? Monster Summoning I'd keep elementals a separate spell for conceptual and flavor reasons. Flesh to Stone As I said we'll handle all those issues. I'm making FtS work much more like a permanent hold/stun, and you may get an example of that with IR's Staff of Earth on hit ability. So, one the the two secondary effects I suggested actually is a short 1 round hold/stun on successful save, and not 1 round of vanilla's petrification opcode. Invisible Stalker If by that you mean following the caster in different areas that's actually something I'm planning to do for all summons. PfMW 3 rounds/lvl?!?

Spells Icons I don't even know which color is tied to a particular school. I actually like the red/blue/white pattern more because it quickly gives the user an idea of what he should expect from such spell, but if you are willing to work on that I think both I and Ardanis will gladly help you if we can, and eventually make your work a component of SR if you wish. 6th Level Spells Acid Fog Its school is changed from Evocation to Conjuration. I was also thinking about slightly altering its dmg output to last a couple of rounds even after escaping the cloud. Most acid based attacks work like that and it would also make its dmg output work more similarly to AD&D version of this spell (where dmg inflicted increases the more the target remains inside the cloud). Overall the spell wouldn't change much, but ongoing dmg would make it slightly more different than just a more damaging Cloudkill. No? The only real problem about doing the above mentioned tweak would be making the description clear. Chain Lightning It should be fine. Conjure Air/Earth/Fire Elemental We are thinking to merge them into a single spell, and to move greater elementals (which are generally considered too powerful right now) to 7th lvl in the form of a new Conjure Greater Elemental spell. Contingency As discussed elsewhere this will be made an innate ability gained by mages at lvl up. Create Undead Ok, here there's a lot to discuss. Within V4 necromancers will have a lot more minions at their disposal, and the huge overhaul I planned look like this: * at 3rd lvl I'd add Animate Skeletons (the equivalent of the current SR's Animate Dead) * at 4th lvl I'd add Animate Dead and make it summons ghouls and ghasts (should I rename the spell?) * the current Create Undead will summon one Skeletal Warrior I'd rename it Animate Skeletal Warrior taking inspiration from PnP's 6th lvl Animate Dread Warrior, but it may as well keep its current name. The point it that the current Create Undead is considered too weak for its spell slot (am I wrong?) whereas the uber powerful Skeletal Warrior deserved to be back, but to an appropriate spell lvl (it's so powerful imo that it actually rivals 7th lvl summons). Let me know your thoughts. Death Spell --> Banishment As most of you already know vanilla's version of this spell actually was PnP Banishment + PnP Death Spell. For conceptual/consistency reasons I'm thus replacing vanilla's Death Spell with Banishment. I was thinking to then re-add Death Spell to necromancers (to give them at least one offensive 6th lvl spell), but its true PnP form is completely useless within BG imo. Ardanis suggested to make it a sort of Mass Enervation to make it appealing, but now I'm even considering the possibility of not re-implementing it at all, because something else can easily fill this spell slot: Symbol of Fear. SoF didn't make any sense as an 8th lvl spell (2nd lvl spell Horror does almost the same!), but moving it here, as per PnP, and making it a necromantic spell as per 3E, should make it much more viable imo. Speaking of Symbol spells in general, I'd like to improve them if possible and make them work more similarly to PnP. Long story short, Symbol spells shouldn't have an instant duration, they should affect the area for x rounds and affect all creatures entering it (though PnP limits to HD and max hp probably make them last shortly anyway). So, I'd add an ongoing duration (while making sure each creature has to save only once against it), though I still have to find an animation to indicate the area affected. Disintegrate This spell will instantly destroy a Mordy Sword without save as per PnP. Other than that the spell is more or less fine, but I need some feedback on its actual effectiveness. The save to avoid its massive damage will surely be nerfed because the current -5 penalty is above the -4 cap I'm imposing within V4, but there was a discussion back then with some players suggesting to make it -2 if not no penalty at all. What do you think? To further refine the spell, what about making it somewhat affect golems too? We could make it a very limited effect as per PnP (1d12 dmg and slow for 1d6 rounds), but I'd personally make it at least slightly more effective (who'd waste a 6th lvl spell to deal 1d12 dmg?), and I wouldn't limit it to only clay golems. Feel free to bash my idea, the spell would still be very good in terms of power. Flesh to Stone Leaving aside all the technical issues/bugs the spell currently has (we should be able to handle them all within V4), this spell needs some serious improvement imo to compete with its cousin Disintegrate, not to mention I currently prefer even Hold Monster over it (almost same effect in terms of effectiveness during a battle, but with a larger AoE and cheaper spell slot!). Long story short, the only way I can imagine this spell becoming interesting is by adding it a secondary effect, which can still affect a target on a successfull save. I suggest to use one of the following two solutions: a) target is considerably slowed b) target is petrified for 1 round The former would pratically turn this spell into a sort of Improved Slow (which I was tempted to add), while the latter is inspired by vanilla's Implosion secondary effect. What do you think? Globe of Invulnerability Obviously there's no need to make any change here. Improved Haste This spell won't grant 2x apr anymore to balance its OP-ness when used on warriors (for dualwielders this pratically was the equivalent of casting Greater Whirlwind Attack 10+ times, with even additional benefits such as doubled movement speed, improved thac0 and improved AC), but it will grant +2 apr, making it finally work for any class (it previously granted only +1 apr to non-warriors). Invisible Stalker I'd dare to suggest expanding its current concept, making it able to detect and disarm traps. This alone would turn this previously underused summon into an incredibly cool one. If I wanted to really go overboard I'd even suggest to make it able to explore the area outside the "fog of war". Mislead The current solution should be fine/balanced in terms of gameplay. I've thought about trying to understand how Galactygon made the summoned illusion take the place of the caster instead of appearing alongside it, but afaik there's no way to prevent the spell from displaying the hardcoded message which indicates a Mislead spell as been cast, making the whole "mislead" concept pointless. Pierce Magic To make it more similar to its PnP version, more true to how an abjuration spell is supposed to work, and different from Lower Resistance alteration, I'd make it completely nullify magic resistance on target (setting it to 0%) but for a very limited amount of time (only a bunch of rounds). Power Word Silence I guess it's fine, though not hugely appealing imo. Protection from Magic Energy I guess it's fine. On a side note, looking at this spell's name, I may have a suggested name for the "new" 5th lvl spell which includes the old 4 Protection from Acid/Electrical/Fire/Cold: Protection from Elemental Energy. This way we should be able to preserve Protection from the Elements and Protection from Energy (aka Elemental Energy + Magic Energy). Protection from Magical Weapons It may get its 4 rounds duration back because DavidW almost convinced me. Stone to Flesh This spell was pointless from the beginning (very situational, underpowered and absurdly "expensive" for the few times you may think to need it), but now that we have Break Enchantment it has become even more laughable. The only idea I found to make it at least appealing was to rename it Shape Stone and make it a sort of improved Stoneskin castable on allies (eventually retaining its cure petrification effect too). Other than that I don't know, if you don't like such solution I surely wouldn't mind removing it completely, and perhaps fill the free spell slot with Improved Slow (though I fear the latter would somewhat overlap with Flesh to Stone's role as single target disabling alteration). Summon Nishruu I guess it's more or less fine, though I never understood why they put both Nishruu and Hakeashar considering they are pretty much the same thing. Tenser's Transformation V3 version should be more or less fine, though there was a discussion about its drawback (no spellcasting) being too harsh. True Seeing For balance/conceptual reasons I'd make TS not destroy illusionary creatures anymore. As planned it will reveal invisible characters without dispelling Improved Invisibility's partial-invisibility, while allowing to cast spells against II opponents (as if they were completely visible to the caster under TS). Unfortunately due to technical issues we discussed with aVENGER I cannot make it work 100% as per PnP, and the above solution is the closest one I could find. This spell will also be updated to make sure the new offensive illusions (such as Phantasmal Killer and Weird) won't be able to harm a character under TS. Wyvern Call I was planning to remove it completely, but it may instead simply get renamed/merged into the new Monster Summoning VI. Back then I was thinking to override its filename (spwi619) with the new Shades spell, hoping to see the latter being used by the current AI without waiting new SCS updates, but I'm not sure anymore. In the long run it's probably better to simply rename Wvyern Call as Monster Summoning VI to preserve its concept, and hope future SCS updates (or other AI mods in general) will make good use of the new Shades spell to create a true Illusionist