Daulmakan

Regarding many PnP things being broken and unbalanced I obviously agree, but tweaking it seems more smooth than reinventing the wheel. Anyway, that's my opinion, not the established and absolute truth.

IMO it's blown out of proportion. SOME things being broken/unbalanced is a far cry from making the entire 2E system broken, that is simply nonsense.

P.S Nap isn't included in the official AD&D Spell Compendium,

Yes it is. Volume 2 of the Priest Spell Compendium. And I don't think it's that big of a deal. IIRC there aren't that many deities with access to the Time sphere, and most that do have access to it are restricted from other useful spells from different spheres.

Of course, introducing it into BG2 would clash with the ingame implementation of Wish, given the nature of the game. But complaining against something that hasn't been done seems moot.

You keep ignoring what I say: the nature of the products is entirely different.

You say that we can use several spells to generate XP out of nowhere, perpetuum mobile? It contradicts laws of thermodynamics, and while I know we're talking about magic in fantasy setting, I'd find it strange to not apply it onto well-developed game system.

If, by some bizarre way, you manage to get an enemy wizard to keep throwing summons at you without killing him or getting killed in the process, which is inevitably halted at some point, as there's a limit to spells per day after all (after which you can just kill him), making this assumption pretty pointless, then I guess so. Note, however, 2 things: 1) the mage must be an enemy, party summon friendlies exploits are excluded. 2) the XP isn't generated out of nowhere, you're just bringing along a creature that was somewhere else at the point previous to the casting. Teleporting/plane shifting to its location instead and killing it would accomplish the same effect.

Taking your extreme example to the extreme, taking an enemy wizard prisoner and giving him a spellbook of only summoning spells and engaging him each day under monitored and regulated conditions by the party wouldn't yield XP because the DM could rule that there is no actual challenge there. Blatant exploits aren't part of my argument.

Let's say there's a trial, in which party needs to dodge ten fiireballs (roughly speaking). Would it get XP for completing this quest? It should. Are fireballs any different from ones invoked by a lich? No. Does then fb yield XP in one case and doesn't in another? Yes.

In case of enemy spellcaster, fireballs and summons are already accounted for and XP reward for them is included in caster's worth. If they're independent source, then they count independently too.

In that case, you get XP for completing the test, as in Quest experience. The fact that it involves fireballs is irrelevant. You can get dozens of thousands of XP just by answering a riddle, after all.

If you prefer no XP to be awarded for summons because it makes the game harder, then it's enough of a reason.

I'm talking only about the concept, not game balance.

I guess the discussion continues, then.

The was no demon to begin with, as there was no Fireball. They are not independent entities and do not appear by themselves, but only if and when a wizard wishes so. Both are the offensive product of said wizard's spellcasting, that party has to deal with one way or another.

You keep ignoring what I say: the nature of the products is entirely different.

Resisting a spell requires protective buffs, dispels and healing potions, sometimes even raising dead, depending on the type. It is not for free and consumes resources just as fine.

Nope. Making a save and just taking damage requires nothing, and then you have all your action points for that round available for making an attack, without having to worry about the summon in question.

Spell slots contribute to caster's total XP worth. If he had no spells available at all, he would be 500 XP at most, as a mediocre fighter with no skill.

But the main point here is not the caster, but the summons. If the summoned monster would yield XP when killed individually, why killing it when summoned by a mage doesn't?

Perhaps a separation of points is best. If you prefer no XP to be awarded for summons because it makes the game harder, then it's enough of a reason. But the justification derives from the purpose itself, and as such, isn't convincing when the implementation is separated from that purpose.

That's what Ardanis has been saying and what I've been arguing against all this time.

A level 8 spell slot != a demon from the lower planes, you have it wrong. The demon has an XP listed value, a spell does not. And your post doesn't adress my previous one.

In both cases, the party gets the same XP for defeating the same creature, even though the process for each case differes greatly.

That's what I'm saying. The process is different (fireballs or demons), the end result is the same.

 

PS In case it's not obvious - I'm advocating the position that granting XP for killed summons is not justified within game rules.

You missed my entire point. A Demon is an extra creature defeated, a Fireball is not. Killing a Glabrezu demands resources: attacks, spells, and so on. Resisting a Fireball is a passive action.

You're as stubborn as ever

I could say the same.

There's an enemy lich worthy of 20k XP. It can toss at PC three 8th level spells.

 

2nd scenario, lich summons three glabresu (let's assume they're of vanilla's strength, since SCS/SR does boost them significantly), and that's all. Party manages to kill those three vanilla-weak demons, gets XP for them, then turns to lich. The only thing a lich can do is to watch as it's being sliced in pieces, because it has no spells to fight with. Is this easy kill worth 20k XP? Never.

XP is granted on account of level of power, which in itself has a varying degree of efficiency when applied. There's no discerning between levels of success when computing it, because two same creatures with the same power level could obtain different results. Quick examples: 1. after a vicious fight, the party manages to defeat a level 20 wild mage, but half the party is killed in the process. 2. An equivalent level 20 wild mage casts a spell but gets a wild magic roll that polymorphs him into a rabbit, party kills him with ease, no casualties. In both cases, the party gets the same XP for defeating the same creature, even though the process for each case differes greatly.

By your rationality, if I manage to defeat Firkraag in just a couple of rounds via use of Timestop+Alacrity+ABDH or malisoned Finger of death or whatever, I should get less XP (or even nothing) because it was a walk in the park THAT time. It doesn't work that way. You get the corresponding XP because you whacked a red dragon, regardless if you got lucky or not while doing it.

You whacked 2 critters instead of 1 in scenario 2.

And? Another critter is an 8th spell of the main one.

No, the Glabrezu is not a spell. The spell doesn't CREATE it, it just brings it to the fight from somewhere else. If you encountered that same Glabrezu in the lower planes, you'd get XP for killing it.

PS Otherwise the caster should yield less XP, because he only summoned a demon and then stood idly watching the fight.

I'm not sure what to make of this, it doesn't seem sensible beahaviour and neither do I see the relevance to the point of discussion.

Scenario 1: the Evil Wizard casts Horrid Wilting. You survive and kill him.

 

Scenario 2: the Evil Wizard summons a Glabrezu. You defeat it, and then kill him.

 

Shouldn't you get the same experience in both cases?

No. Why should you? You whacked 2 critters instead of 1 in scenario 2.

IMO, hostile summons should yield XP when killed, and friendly summons should yield none if force-attacked (this is an obvious exploit).

aTweaks employs this behaviour for the summoned fiends.

Hope you don't mind me moving your question to the proper thread.

Sorry about that.

Anyways, all of the writing for SoA is done, and 50% of ToB writing is done. Overall, probably 80% done, then it would need coded. Even after Cam left, there have been offers by others to code it when it is finished.

Thanks for update.

Just out of curiosity, how much % of the mod would you say is already done?

I'm already planning on randomising potions, wands and ammunition, and if I can manage to make a description BAM that doesn't make me wince there'll be a component for randomising the material needed to forge the IMoD.

What type of item BAM do you need? I could give it a shot if you want.

Just FYI, I provide an alternate way of forging the IMoD in my mod, if you want to check for it during installation of the Randomizer to avoid duplication.

I know it's been years but any news on the status of this mod?

 

I wouldn't mind playing an alpha as I think the concept is absolutely great and judging by what I've read in the mod testing thread it worked with Tutu back in 2006.

Sorry for the thread necromancing.

I just remembered about this mod, and reading Andyr's last comments, the mod is supposedly done (other than voicing). Is releasing it out of the question? Would anyone share the beta/release candidate with me?

Wrote five out of nine epilogues today. I know it's hardly a significant progress considering how much time has gone, but it's something.

Great to hear.

You'll be pleased to hear I pestered Meira and Darios about Amber ToB when I saw them in London

Well done, sir.

My brother decided to buy me the SEGA Mega Drive: Ultimate Collection for Christmas.

 

 

Yay for more Golden Axe-age on my Xbox!

Don't have an Xbox, but that's like, EPIC WIN!

Got them, Nythrun. Thanks.

A few more comment typos (this probably isn't the place for this, but you can always ban me ):

COPY_EXISTING ~chan20.itm~ ~override~ // white dragon scale

~dwplat01.itm~ ~override~ // drow full plate +5

~leat19.itm~ ~override~ // white dragon scale

~misc5x.itm~ ~override~ // harper pin

PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files

READ_BYTE 0x29 "use"

WRITE_BYTE 0x29 ("%use%" BOR 0b00010000) // adds shapeshifter flag

Leat19.itm is Shadow Dragon Scale.

// fixes expolit of casting restore on a simulcrum

I can't seem to find most of the altered .dlgs in the TP2. Are they stored in another file type? How would I go about removing/comment them out?

BTW Small typo on one of the comments:

// Varscona is unique; repacing all references excet Ribald's with generic +2 sword