Lawlight

1) Greater Dimension Door

As per PnP, caster can use a short ranged Dimension Door each round for 1 round every 2 levels (I think we can make it last a fixed turn, if not more). The cool aspect of this spell is that even if limited by LoS it would still allow super fast travels from one area to another (which is the only thing the single use, long casting, 4th lvl DD would be used for). I know removing LoS limit from DD is cool on paper, and fine for many players, but I really cannot tolerate its quest/game breaking potential.

As I said before, that'd be uber cool.

2) Swift Etherealness

Transmuters have only one spell at this lvl, Lower Resistance, so adding at least one Alteration spell is a must imo. DavidW once said that he decided to not implement any true Transmuter within SCS because of the lack of PfMW and protection spells in general. Well, this is could be the answer to it imo.

Yeah, it looks like the obvious choice to fix this issue.

Pratically this is a quick casting (a swift action within PnP), short lasting Etherealness, and within PnP it performs as a "panic button", but I don't know if it would be enough appealing as just a panic button within BG, would it? [...] but Resilient Sphere would perform the same way for that role, if not better!

I share your doubts concerning true PnP Etherealness.

I was daring to suggest disabling physical attacks, but allowing spellcasting (e.g. we could assume that the caster blinks from the ethereal and material plane like Phase Spiders do, becoming material only for an instant while casting the spell). Long story short, this would pretty much be an uber short lasting (in PnP it's 1 round, but I'd say 2-3) Absolute Immunity+Improved Invisibility which disables physical attacks.

Really like the concept you're suggesting here. I'd start with 2 rounds.

3) Ball Lightning

We have two ways to implement this spell:

a) a lightning based version of Melf Minute Meteors

b) a lightning based version of Blade Barrier

The first one is slightly more true to PnP, while the second one is slightly more unique (especially because mages have not a single spell working a la Blade Barrier). Which solutions would you prefer?

I'd prefer b), because I favour uniqueness over a slightly better MMM.

Lightning Ring looks a much better candidate for the barrier effect, with it's lightning bolts.

This.

4) Waves of Fatigue

Really like what you plan to do here.

5) Mestil's Acid Sheath

retty much the conjurer's version of Fire Shield, but more damaging and with a slightly better dmg type. Not my favourite spell, but we don't have better alternatives imo, and Ardanis seems to love it.

I love it too. But something has to be done about the stacking problematique. The more I think about the problem, the more I come to the conclusion that Blue/Red should be merged. Ardanis already suggested it in another thread. I'd like to quote you two to bring the discussion alive again:

That's why I'm advocating combining red and blue effects ala NWN instead of selecting from submenu, and turning the other file into similar spell. Acid Sheath is simply the closest variant, because it has backlash and is reasoned to protect against insects. It certainly is one level higher, but I imagine it's affordable, unless there're new 5th leel spells in store.

In theory I'd actually agree with you because:

- a fireshield with blue flames and cold damage makes no sense to me

- having a wall of fire lessen both cold and fire damage makes sense (in fact in PnP the red one protects from cold)

- having 50% resistance to both elements in the same spell would greatly improve the appeal of this 4th lvl spell imo

- making it a single spell allow us to not fear staking fireshields (or to add another similar effect without worsening the current status quo)

- granting immunity to insect spells a la SCS makes sense only for the fire damaging version

BUT:

- that would indeed classify as removing a spell

- if any AI wanted to stack the two shields it won't be able to do so anymore (I fear SCS does it sometimes, doesn't it?)

Well, is there a way to trick the AI?

6) Mind Fog

Shadow Magic

Ironically, I wanted to suggest it some time ago, but I completely forgot about it. I can live with it becoming an Illusionist-only feature.

Absolute Immunity

[...]I suggest to make it grants what its name suggests, absolute immunity [..] If you're thinking that would be OP[..]

First I thought: wow! he can't be serious! that is so op! man! (just kidding) But your argumantation convinced me.

Bigby's Crushing Hand

I think it's fine. The only possible improvement I could think of is making it bypass MR like Comet & Dragon's Breath, but then it's only a lvl 9 spell, so no.

Black Blade of Disaster EDIT

Really like what you have done here and to all the other magical created weapons too, especially that the caster can benifit from the proper proficiencies while wielding them. I use BBoD alot on my F/M (not on my single class mages, though), but more because always using TS can become annoying sometimes. PFMW & Stoneskin counters it, thats a little bit odd. What I fear is that BBoD does not deserve to be a lvl 9 spell. It has some high damage potential, yes, but it should really bypass PFMW and Stoneskin. Hell, one could do much more in a single TS. As I said: I memorize BBoD when TS annoyes me -> 'nuff said! Maybe only Absolute Immunity should block it's damage. That said, yes it could be somewhat op, but so is TS too. On a side note: I wish it could be useable by Blades, so if you think bypassing the mentioned protections is to strong: maybe move it to lvl 8...

Chain Contingency

Don't share your doubts. Just do it.

Energy Drain EDIT

Never really used it. *shy*

Again, am yet to memorize. -4 levels is no big deal for 15+ opponents. 2d4 as per 3E?

I smell some serious op shit. Mixed feelings here.

Freedom EDIT

The ultimate "cure status" spell.[...]

That'll have to do.

Gate

See Wish with the major difference that I think it'd be pretty cool to bring it closer to PnP.

Imprisonment

I think it's pretty balanced. See some previous posts of mine.

Meteor Swarm EDIT

]I prefer the current solution, as well as its current concept and animation (a trus swarm of meteors, not just a bunch of fireballs)[...]

And so do I.

On a side note, to make it more effective I thought about making half of the dmg physical, but I fear doing so would make its concept slightly turns into a conjurations rather than an evocation.

Physical damage would fit very nice imo. I don't mind if it needs to be changed to conjuration school then.

One a side not, following the same arguments I'd make Comet deal some fire damage. It's animation really indicates that!

Power Word Kill EDIT

Instead of having PW:Kill affect only targets with less than 60 hit points I'd make it kill any target regardless of hp, allowing only those with more than 60hp a save to avoid death. Targets with less than 60hp won't be allowed a save as before.

Mixed feelings here. Really enjoy the "the current hp points are used for it's determination" feature.

Shapechange EDIT

No changes needed imo.

'Nuff said! Never really used the other two forms, though. One can't balance the forms among themselfs, because the creatures are varyingly strong either. That's ok.

Otoh, let me know if you think we should really add one particular form

You've provoked it: Beholder. *cover* But if I remember right you said it would be to difficult to implement (and I believe it is). Vampire would be another cool form. Another of those INSANE ideas would be a dragon form... *just kidding*

Spellstrike

[...]as long as Spell Shield can counter one Spellstrike I think everything would be fine, wouldn't it?

I think so.

Time Stop EDIT

Who ever touches this spell will get his finder burnt, I think. Personally, I'm really in a love-hate relationship with it. Balancing level 9 around it is very wise indeed. At the risk of getting stoned to death: I think it should be a lvl 10 spell.

Wish

It's really your and Ardanis' very own decision (it's your free time). In my opinion it's not worth the effort.

Level 9 Spells in general EDIT HOT

To make level 9 spells more appealing in endgame, I'd make level 10 spells innates. It could be a possible buff for mages in general, but it'd give you also the chance to balance (that's KR's business I think) how often they could be used per day. For example Improved Alacrity only once per day.

EDIT: I edited my post to make my feedback a bit more detailed.

Imprisonment

For Imprisonment, it's exactly the need to cast Freedom to get XP and loot back that makes it not viable compared to weaker PW Kill. Adding a save will render it completely unusable, I fear.

100% agree.

Maze

Would tweaking Maze's minimum duration make any difference?

Maybe. I'd vote for a range increase too.

Although I would increase maximum too.

That could annoy people.

Mantles & PFMW

but I'm surely not throwing out a party to celebrate how cool these non-PnP spells are

Hehe.

I'm not really suggesting a Mass PfFM but rather a sort of PfMW aura, which protects the caster and allies within 10 feet from him

It would definitaly solve the problem of making Mantle finaly unique, but I think some more feedback is very welcome here.

let's just make 8th a mass PFMW and remove 7th Mantle completely

Logical consequence.

Incendiary Cloud

I don't get the concept behind a fire damaging spell increasing the fire dmg its target suffer. I would have understood if you suggested to make Grease increase fire dmg within its AoE.

The Grease idea is really cool. *thumb-up*

EDIT:

We used it so often we don't even remember how it currently works. I already made it faster to cast (5 instead of 8) and I already added it some range (medium instead of touch - or short, I don't remember). It seems like I'm not so stupid as I think and I already tried to improve it as much as I could.

I checked it this minute and the range is indeed already medium per V3.

In theory we had little to no space here, but we can gain quite a few spell slots by making the two Fire Shield spells a single one for example, by merging Spider Spawn into MSIV (everyone seems to hate gnolls anyway), by moving Dimension Door elsewhere, and eventually by keeping only one between Farsight and Wizard Eye (they do the same thing). Anyway, let's see what we could add here, as always in order of my preference.

And even one more spell slot if Simbul's Spell Matrix becomes an innate.

1) Phantasmal Killer

Offensive Illusion spells are very welcome.

2) Mordenkainen's Force Missiles

If this spell makes it into the game a longtime wish of mine comes true. I'd go for 2d4*7 (without a save), because that is really the defining part of that spell isn't it (sticks in the word "force")? As for the AoE damage I'd go for 10 splash damage (save to negate) per missle. Another option would be to uncouple the blast from the first target, and balance AoE and single target damage separately.

3) Vitriolic Sphere

I'd go for the AD&D version for the splash damage. This way the damage to the first target could be a bit higher. I'd really like to see a more "bursty" acid spell (no spell fills that niche atm), most damage on impact (1d4 per lvl / maybe capped at lvl 20), half of that the second round and so on... (for the first target)

4) Enervation

Really like it, but not to replace Contagion.

5) Dimensional Anchor

6) Animate Ghouls

Fog Cloud

I prefer both - reducing LOS gives advantage to those outside of cloud, while II effect - to those within it. The spell doesn't have any definite bonus or penalty, but is neutral, so it is up to the caster to decide whether the benefit will outweight the penalty or not.

I'm with Andaris here. As I said before, it should not last long though.

I'd like to know what other players think about making creatures within the fog semi-invisible. One more thing, implementing it would make this spell the ultimate anti-thief spell as true invisibility would be impossible, not even via hide in shadows...it really doesn't convince me.

Yes it would make the spell a thiefes nightmare, but I don't see how this could be a problem at all (assumed the spell dont last for ages). Why on earth would a thief give up his advantage of a prepared attack to enter the fog and try to backstab? Logically he waits for the better moment. I wouldn't use my thief on targets within the fog anyway, because the planned -4 penalty to melee hit rolls lets me think twice about it. My suggestion: make it last as long as PfMW.

Animate Dead

Like it.

Icelance

This spell rocks imo. I just hope I can make it use a decent animation. I'd keep its classic 5d6 dmg (no save), either 100% cold dmg a la IWD or 2d6 piercing dmg + 3d6 cold dmg a la PnP, but I was thinking to modify its stunning effect a little. Instead of "stun" opcode I'd use a "hold" one which doesn't count as a mind affecting effect. It all depends on how we think this spell is supposed to work, but I think the target isn't stunned because of the dmg, but impaled by the lance itself, thus a physical paralyzation and not a mental one.

Whatever way you choose - it will be fine.

Keen Edge

I really hoped it would make it into the game. ;(

Beware, new 4th lvl spells are coming!

Ooooo new shiny ones!

Symbol of Weakness & Symbol of Stunning

I'd move it at 7th lvl as per PnP, making it match priest's spell lvl.

Makes sense.

Symbol of Death

Or just make it match priest's spell lvl too (7th lvl) breaking with PnP in this case.

Simulacrum

It's perfectly fine now.

Maze

Ignore MR maybe?

What I do fear here is that it would become too appealing compared to Imprisonment.

For me Imprisonment is more about having an ace up one's sleeve (a kind of last resort spell). You could use it to disable one dangerous target (of a hostile party) and there is basically nothing it can do about, then come back after the fight and finish the job. It could be called somewhat overpowerd, but on the same time it has become more of an underdog, not only because it shares it's slot with lvl 9 spells, but more because you have to rest multiple times or free it to get your loot. In my opinion thats a good example for balance.

Maze on the other hand is much harder to balance, because it can basically the same thing (on low-mid INT targets though) and it has to be weaker than Imprisonment. But more often than not the target comes back faster than you like and you have to deal with that. But that is fine in my eyes, because it's more an combat orientated version of Imprisonment and you must keep an eye on it, it's not a no brainer. But Ardanis has a point too, because the player has to estimate the targets INT already to decide it's usefulness, and MR complicates that even more. My suggestion: lower the castime to 1 to make it even more reactive in the heat of the battle.

Mantles

I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?).

Interesting, but... unbalanced maybe? Coupled with the above tweak it is almost a mass Absolute Immunity!

You call it a daring solution, but I think it would be a quite interesting one. Needless to say, that this party protection thing really fits the mantle theme in my eyes. The duration needs to be adjusted then of course (nerfed).

I just had a crazy idea regarding Mantles, but I haven't studied it, thus don't insult me please, I don't know if it would be unbalanced (probably not) or mess with AI detectable spells. Long story short, what about making Mantle effect increase with caster lvl up to grant full immunity to weapons? Except with RR's Cyric encounter PfMW already does that, thus I don't see a balance problem, and Mantles uses very high spell lvls.

I don't want to insult you at all, but I think that would not help much to differentiate them from PfMW and from each other at all.

Incendiary Cloud

What about adding a secondary effect to those within the Cloud, that makes them suffer increased fire damage (20% for example?). ToBEx made this possible, or am I wrong? This would allow some nice combos.

Genies

Sometimes I think most players don't realize how much work there is behind summons, not to mention spellcasting ones. Trust me it takes ages to plan (e.g. I have to check the various PnP versions - write down possible implementations - compare them to other summons to balance them) and as much to realize (e.g. cre, weapon, scripts). End of my rant.

 

Long story short, I wouldn't mind working on them if I had so much spare, but let's say it's not my top priority considering we already have TONS of summons to work on. We'll see.

To be fair, it was you who reopened my old sores by suggesting (or thinking about) to add Daos. Perhaps it's just me, but it has bothered me since day one that there are Air/Fire/Earth Elementals but only Air & Fire Genies.

Tenser's Transformation

If we want to replace the "no spellcasting" drawback with something much less drastical, I'd probably prefer to add a fatigue effect at the end of the transformation.

 

Btw, if we opt for any of those solution I think we do have to make one more tweak, make TT not stackable with any other alteration spell such as Polymorph Self, Ghostform and Shapechange.

A fatigue effect sounds interesting, but I'm not sure whether it would be enough. And yes, TT should not stack with those spells with enabled spellcasting. Good point!

Snilloc's Snowball Swarm

Yeah, as I said the main reason is that, though on a side note it also makes the spell usable by the AI (SCS doesn't like to use unfriendly AoE spells because the AI has troubles handling them). That being said, while Snowball Swarm was born exactly as a lesser Fireball, I do feel making it at least somewhat different wouldn't hurt. Actually as an unfriendly cold-based fireball with half AoE and half dmg it wouldn't really be appealing imo (at least AD&D version actually had a larger AoE), Fireball is just one lvl higher and it would make this spell pointless. Am I wrong?

Your arguments are valid. Ok, you've confinced me. There are other options like a little slow etc. to differentiate them even further. But then, the small AOE range could be perfectly ok.

Perhaps it's just me, but wouldn't it be better if those creatures were vulnerable to cold dmg in the first place instead of certain cold-based spells deal 2x dmg and other cold-based attacks work normally?

You have a good point here too. It was btw just a suggestion to make it more appealing in comparison to Fire Ball in at least some situations. But as a generell cold spell feature (quite like that idea), a 1,5 modiefer would be more balanced I think (Cone of Cold double Damage? O.o).

Resist Fire/Cold

There was no previous discussion. In vanilla you had 3rd lvl ProFire granting 80% resistance, now ProFire grants complete immunity but it's a 5th lvl spell, and within BG1 you don't get 5th lvl spells until the very end of the game. I'm suggesting to add this spell to offer a cheaper lesser protection for lower lvl mages.

Thank you for clarification.

Some of the stuff discussed before:

Tenser's Transformation

V3 version should be more or less fine, though there was a discussion about its drawback (no spellcasting) being too harsh. Is it?

Maybe enable spellcasting and add spellcasting failure in exchange. Or increase the casting time to such a degree, that it is a tough decision between using the weapon or casting a spell.

Invisible Stalker

I'd dare to suggest expanding its current concept, making it able to detect and disarm traps. This alone would turn this previously underused summon into an incredibly cool one.

 

If I wanted to really go overboard I'd even suggest to make it able to explore the area outside the "fog of war".

That would be uber cool.

Elementals

Water Elementals?

Genies

Daos and Marids?

Monster Summoning II

I'm looking forward to it.

Gedlee's Electric Loop

If you handle the stun like PnP (NWN Series treated it the same way) it should be balanced.

Snilloc's Snowball Swarm

So why exactly do you plan to make it party-friendly? Visual looks? In my small, but colorful world it has always been the weaker version of Fireball. Anyway, I would prefer the 3E version with a maximum of 5d6 points of cold damage and the compromise of a 15 feet AoE radius (10 feet if you intend to nerf Fireball), exactly the half of Fireball in every single aspect. Furthermore, I also like IWD's feature of double damage against fire-based creatures.

Resist Fire/Cold

I fear I've missed the whole discussion here.

Fog Cloud vs. Obscuring Mist

Yes they are basically the same thing, and I prefer the shorter duration of Obscuring Mist anyway. Actually, it should not last very long for balancing reasons. As for the name, I opt for Fog Cloud, not only are there already many Cloud spells, but the word 'mist' sounds really strange as a native German (in German mist means dung/muck).

I obviously don't mind too much about Sphere of Chaos because it never existed in PnP (though I kinda like what I did with it)

And so do I. I didn't even used it in vanilla, though I liked the IR V2 Version much (but it annoyed some players) and your V3 Version is quite powerful (but I will not miss it that much). As a sidenote: If you ever find some time for wild mage love (broad hint) Wildzone would be a good way to reintroduce V2's SoC.

Chaos unfortunately existed within AD&D, though I really cannot imagine why considering Confusion is pretty much the same thing. Let's say that conceptually I do agree with Ardanis that Chaos is really redundant, not only because of Confusion but also because at the same lvl you have Hold Monster which in theory fills the same role.

It IS actually redundant. Without IR's changes Chaos would be basically the same as Confusion with a slightly tougher save.

Symbol of Insanity:

- targets must make a save only once

+ target is permanently affected on a failed save

+ target with 5 HD less than the caster are not allowed a save (this is a Chaos feature, but I guess we'd keep it)

- uses only one type of effect, confusion, which is great against spellcasters but not always optimal vs warriors

+ can be set as a trap before combat

+ also fits the divine 7th spellvl better than SoC (because there are already some Symbol spells too)

I think we can:

a) change Chaos into Symbol of Insanity and make it replace non-PnP Sphere of Chaos

b) move Chaos to 6th lvl instead of adding the new Enchantment spell I was going to suggest, Eyebite

c) simply remove Chaos

If you and Ardanis think it is possible to let the AI use Confusion instead of Chaos, I would definitely prefer a) (with the "5 HD less than the caster[...]" feature). Regarding Eyebite: Wow, thats a funny one. Quite like the idea.

Absolute Immunity is going to be epic anyway.

What do you plan for Absolute Immunity?

As much as I understand the advantage of such a change, I thought that Demi planned the same for Sphere of Chaos some posts above. And isn't Symbol of Insanity (based on Chaos) inferior to Sphere of Chaos then?

First of all, I'm glad to see you decided to add new spells. If it is done right (and you have my blind trust) it could add really much fun to the mage gameplay.

Here is my wishlist:

1) Dimension Step/Dimension Hop

I really like the idea of moving DD's features to the 1st lvl, because I love the spell as such but for a 4th lvl spell it's indeed to weak. Quick, once per use, in LoS, cheap: all attributes fitting the 1st spell lvl the best. The idea of Ardanis (Greater DD) sounds even more fun. So why not take both?

2) Fog Cloud/Obscuring Mist

If you find a proper way to implement it, it will be by far the most interesting one of the five and a nice defensive tool.

3) Monster Summoning I

As I share your opinion of ensuring that every Specialist should have at least something cool each spell lvl, I really favor this one over the rest. Even more if Find Familiar is made an innate ability (which of course is the right way to go as a main-char-only spell). Gibberlings on the other hand are not only a must have for Conjurers, they are also a must have for this site.

Ice Dagger

Yes you are right in both. Arcane magic is lacking cold based skills and Ice Dagger brings nothing really new to the table. I fear Ice Dagger is not the right way to go. There is even already a cold based skill at 1st level: Chill Touch. For me, it's not a question of "should there be more cold based skill?" than "at which spell lvl?" and "in which way?" should they get implemented. I miss Snilloc's Snowball Swarm and Icelance much more than Ice Dagger (never used it in IWD), both skills of a spell lvl missing cold based stuff in BG.

Control Undead

Yes it's fine.

Delayed Blast Fireball

Also fine.

Finger of Death

-4 should do the trick.

Khelben's Warding Whip

I would go for the small magic damge per round ('cause of the analogy to a real whip), but I think neither of the two options is really needed.

Limited Wish

Not worth the effort.

Mantle

It still stands in the shadow of PfMW. More than ever if you really plan to give PfMW its old duration back. Both Mantle skills need some more.

Mass Invisibility

It's indeed fine as it is.

Prismatic Spray

Sounds cool. Its randomness justifies its potential. I fear I'll still use it quite rarely, but that's a matter of taste.

Project Image

Yes I think it needs definitely more nerfs. I like the idea of treating it as a true illuisionary clone, because this differentiates it further from Simulacrum.

Protection from the Elements

I think it's fine and the only bonus I can think of is a small penalty to Elementals attack rolls and a small bonus to saving throws against them (a la Protection from Evil).

Ruby Ray of Reversal

That leaves me even more thinking about the right to exist of Stone to Flesh.

Sphere of Chaos

I'm ok with moving it to 8th level.

Summon Death Knight

It's bad ass as it is.

Summon Djinni & Efreeti

Merging would leave some space for some new stuff.

Summon Hakeashar

The aura sounds quite cool. But I think one of the two spells should get removed to make room for something new.

Hi all,

this is my first post here, normally I'am more the reader in the background.

True Strike

I like the SR2 Version and use it frequently for bard oder mage multiclass characters. The only thing I would like to see here is an increased effect duration, but i can live with 1 round.

Chill Touch

1) Bypassing PfMW-like protection via cold damage sounds good and could help to interrupt spellcasters, so there is at least a use for multiclass mages and bards (and even single class mages). If you find a way to implement this without removing the "+1 enchantment to determine what it can hit" part, its cool.

2) If you really want to add an anti-undead aspect I would say go for the hold thing, because it fits to the whole anti melee / STR drain thing (aka keeping melees on distance or at least weaken them which came in my mind when thinking about a chilling touch). STR drain should stay at 1.

1) & 2) together should make it at least a little bit more interesting for all kind of arcane power users.