Secondary Types

[Ardanis]

I think it's worthwhile to dedicate a separate thread to it.

 

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1) Spell Shield

2) Charm

3) Petrification

4) Web

5) Poison

6) Insect Swarm

7) Blindness

8) Haste

9) Slow

10) Non-Detection

11) Sanctuary

...

 

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Spell Shield

Has already been discussed and tested. Was needed to fix bugs associated with this spell.

 

Charm

Is needed to harmlessly 'cure' the charm opcode [5].

 

Petrification

The Flesh to Stone spell is gonna to be revised into a much more player-friendly version. The sectype is needed to cure the new 'state', in other words - to cancel the spell.

 

Web

To let Fireballs and the like to burn webbed creatures free.

 

Poison

The way the poison opcode works in vanilla makes it as bad as Insects to casters. It is virtually imposssible for a cleric to purify himself of the poison. Haste/Slow effects also affect the speed at which the poison drains HP away.

Changing spells' and items' poison effects into normal HP damage (with 1 round delays) can eliminate the issue but needs it's own sectype for Cure Poison stuff to be effective.

 

Insect Swarm

Same reason as Web, to let FBs to destroy vermin.

 

Blindness

We may add a secondary type to blindness too if we want to add effects to prevent blinded creatures from hiding and setting traps in plain sight. The secondary type would be needed to "cure" these additional effects caused by blindness. It's not too important imo, but I wanted to rememebr it for completeness.

 

Haste and Slow

To cancel each other's extra bonuses/penalties

 

Non-Detection

Non-Detection currently doesn't grant complete protection from Detect Illusion Oracle and True Seeing (it does only in case the protected creature is invisible via thief hide in shadow ability, but not via invisibility spells) because else it would be an uber powerful and cheap SI:Div. The secondary Type would allow me to have it partially protects from Oracle/True Seeing. As per PnP when affected by DI/Oracle/True Seeing the protected creature would be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, a failed save means DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

 

Sanctuary

I was thinking we may actually be able to fix Sanctuary too using a custom sec type.

 

It's more complicated than the other changes (almost on par with the dreaded Spell Shield fix) but the idea was more or less the following:

- set its sec type from 'non-combat' to 'sanctuary'

- instead of 'invisibility' opcode use a 'protection from creature type' opcode (set to work against any creature)

- patch all offensive spells with an external effect which affects the caster as soon as the character start casting any of them (e.g. like I did for Nature's Beatuy 'foce visible' effect)

- such effect should remove from caster all spells with 'sanctuary' sec type

[Demivrgvs]

You're right it's good to have a dedicated topic, and it's good for me you'll handle it!

 

Anyway, I'm not sure about Poison needing a secondary type. I though the damage every x seconds was actually the main feature of this spell. If we really want to have damage take place less often we can make it deal "Param 3 Damage every Param 1 seconds" via .EFF files (because I don't think parameter 3 is available via normal header/opcode. At least I can't find it within NI).

 

Summon Insect, Insect Plague and Creeping Doom may actually have a secondary type too if we want insect to be destroyed by fireballs and the the like.

[Ardanis]

Poison

Very weird. I've checked it up right now and it does indeed have 'per round' variation...

[Demivrgvs]

Poison

Very weird. I've checked it up right now and it does indeed have 'per round' variation...

Don't be misleaded like me by NI though, what NI lists as "x damage per round" actually is "1 damage every x seconds".

[Ardanis]

Ah, yes. That's exactly what I remember was the case. Mummies' disease works exactly like this, flooding the textbox with dozens of 'Mummy deals 1 damage to PC' every once in a round. So yes, while it can be worked around it'll leave the textbox vulnerable to flood.

[Demivrgvs]

Ah, yes. That's exactly what I remember was the case. Mummies' disease works exactly like this, flooding the textbox with dozens of 'Mummy deals 1 damage to PC' every once in a round. So yes, while it can be worked around it'll leave the textbox vulnerable to flood.

Yeah, that's why Create Undead's mummies has a different Mummy Rot which deals 1hp every 3 seconds instead. I hate vanilla's mummy rot.

[Demivrgvs]

We may add a secondary type to blindness too if we want to add effects to prevent blinded creatures from hiding and setting traps in plain sight. The secondary type would be needed to "cure" these additional effects caused by blindness. It's not too important imo, but I wanted to rememebr it for completeness.

[Demivrgvs]

If you haven't noticed I'm working on arcane spells right now.

 

I think I've found something where secondary type would indeed make a difference. Slow and Haste currently don't cancel each other as intended:

* thac0/AC bonuses - penalties overlap instead of replacing one another

* if the two spells have different durations as soon as on expires the other one take place even if it was supposedly canceled

 

Adding two secondary types, and having them cancel each other should do the trick. Improved Haste should simply share haste's secondary type imo, and this solution would also allow us to have these spells cancel each other flawlessly even if they have different effects.

[Demivrgvs]

Wow, two new ideas in a row! And I do love this one. A secondary type for Non-Detection would finally allow me to make it work as it should.

 

Non-Detection currently doesn't grant complete protection from Detect Illusion Oracle and True Seeing (it does only in case the protected creature is invisible via thief hide in shadow ability, but not via invisibility spells) because else it would be an uber powerful and cheap SI:Div. The secondary Type would allow me to have it partially protects from Oracle/True Seeing. As per PnP when affected by DI/Oracle/True Seeing the protected creature would be allowed to make a save, a successfull save means the divination fails, a failed save means DI/Oracle/True Seeing are able to detect the protected creature.

 

Isn't it cool?

 

 

P.S And this should actually be the one and only SI:Div-like effect, instead of that horrid 5th level cheesy SI!

 

P.P.S And a fixed Spell Shield should be the only SI:Abj around!

[Ardanis]

Cool indeed

 

 

Btw, was Entangle supposed to be burned by fires just like Web?

[Demivrgvs]

Btw, was Entangle supposed to be burned by fires just like Web?

Apparently only webs are flammable, thought actually is strange within AD&D where web was an evocation rather than a conjuration. Anyway, I suppose entangle vegetation is not dried and thus it may be difficult to burn it. (not that using logic on this matter is...logic)

[Ardanis]

Anyway, I suppose entangle vegetation is not dried and thus it may be difficult to burn it.

First it gets dehydrated dry with ADHW, then set on fire with FB. Who'd thought that a mere level 1 spell would cause so much trouble

[Demivrgvs]

I'm putting it here because it suddenly come up in my mind for no apparent reason and I'm sure I'd forgot it tomorrow If I don't.

 

I was thinking we may actually be able to fix Sanctuary too using a custom sec type.

 

It's more complicated than the other changes (almost on par with the dreaded Spell Shield fix) but the idea was more or less the following:

- set its sec type from 'non-combat' to 'sanctuary'

- instead of 'invisibility' opcode use a 'protection from creature type' opcode (set to work against any creature)

- patch all offensive spells with an external effect which affects the caster as soon as the character start casting any of them (e.g. like I did for Nature's Beatuy 'foce visible' effect)

- such effect should remove from caster all spells with 'sanctuary' sec type

 

That would allow this spell to finally work as per PnP instead of a silly priest-version of Invisibility.

 

What do you say? Would it work? Is it worth the work?

 

The drawback would be that opponents wouldn't be able to "deal" with Sanctuary as "easily" as in PnP. There they can still target the protected creature, if they win a will check. Anyway, with a short duration, and no offensive options (e.g. like the current Sanctuary + Blade Barrier cheese), it shouldn't be balance/game breaking.

[Ardanis]

What do you say? Would it work? Is it worth the work?

Sounds easy. We only have to gather a list of offensive spells and that's it. Required macros've been already written and stand ready.

 

I'm more concerned about AI, don't remember how it deals with Sanctuary.

 

PS It would appear AI will be ok, or at least I can't find an instance where it won't.

[Demivrgvs]

Sanctuary

What do you say? Would it work? Is it worth the work?

Sounds easy. We only have to gather a list of offensive spells and that's it. Required macros've been already written and stand ready.

Cool. A list of offensive spells for vanilla and SR is relatively easy to gather, though we also have to list all offensive innate abilities too. Taking into account mod-added spells is quite more difficult.

 

Furthermore, offensive spell-like abilities cast via "quick items" is much more difficult. Actually, it's uber-easy if IR is installed because I've made all of them work via .spl, but without IR it's more complicated (e.g. even Wands didn't used actual spells).

 

I'm more concerned about AI, don't remember how it deals with Sanctuary.

 

PS It would appear AI will be ok, or at least I can't find an instance where it won't.

I don't think there's any problem, mainly because even in the current state the AI has no way to bypass Sanctuary as long as the protected creature doesn't ruin it himself (that's precisely why Sanctuary + Blade Barrier was "hilarious").