Is it possible to change how Dispel/Remove magic works?

[ancalimohtar]

I think the biggest problem with magic so far is how streaky it is. Enemy mages do Breach (with SCS), but in general I think having Dispel/Remove Magic cast on you is much more common. I seem to remember in the vanilla game that Dispel checks ONCE, and if it succeeds, ALL your dispellable effects are dispelled. It appears to still be the case with SR, which I think is a shame. It results in some not-so-desirable consequences:

 

1) if the script casts Dispel early on in the fight, you can cheese the AI by sending in one guy to eat it before sending in the rest of the party

2) most buffs in the game are relegated to uselessness, since you won't really bother casting them. only the 1-2 most crucial buffs that warrant being re-cast in the first post-dispel rounds will be cast

3) fights are extremely streaky, and one dice roll determines too much. If you're dispelled, you're screwed, especially in situations where some buffs are absolutely crucial to the fight, like Negative Plane Protection or Chaotic Commands; if you're not dispelled, you chop right through everybody

4) there's a huge reliance on SI: Abj (or in SR v4, Spell Shield), meaning anything that can cast level 5 arcane spells is way, WAY more powerful than anything else.

 

I don't know if it would be too taxing on the game engine, or if it's even possible, but letting Dispel check against each individual spell effect would be the best solution, I think. (First of all, right now, how does Dispel even do a caster level check against ALL your effects, if they were cast by different characters with different caster levels? Full cleric put a Negative Plane Protection on you, but you're a multi F/M and you have a stoneskin. Wildly different caster levels.)

 

If generally getting a Dispel cast on you removed some of your effects, that would really introduce a lot more strategy, I think. This would solve problems 1-4 above.

[kreso]

(First of all, right now, how does Dispel even do a caster level check against ALL your effects, if they were cast by different characters with different caster levels? Full cleric put a Negative Plane Protection on you, but you're a multi F/M and you have a stoneskin. Wildly different caster levels.)

It doesn't. It checks for effects from different sources. Try out yourself. CLUA Viconia to level 35, Edwin to level 12 and have Viconia cast some buff on Edwin, and Edwin cast stoneskin on himself. Now try dispelling that with level 20 Anomen. He will correctly dispel Edwin's stoneskin, but any buff of Vic's will stay.

It only checks once per source (all of Edwin's buffs cast by himself are dispelled if it is succesful, he can't keep for example Armor and Mirror Image while loosing Stoneskin to Dispel magic) and that is an issue I guess...

[ancalimohtar]

(First of all, right now, how does Dispel even do a caster level check against ALL your effects, if they were cast by different characters with different caster levels? Full cleric put a Negative Plane Protection on you, but you're a multi F/M and you have a stoneskin. Wildly different caster levels.)

It doesn't. It checks for effects from different sources. Try out yourself. CLUA Viconia to level 35, Edwin to level 12 and have Viconia cast some buff on Edwin, and Edwin cast stoneskin on himself. Now try dispelling that with level 20 Anomen. He will correctly dispel Edwin's stoneskin, but any buff of Vic's will stay.

It only checks once per source (all of Edwin's buffs cast by himself are dispelled if it is succesful, he can't keep for example Armor and Mirror Image while loosing Stoneskin to Dispel magic) and that is an issue I guess...

 

Well that is better than how I thought it was, but still not as good as separating all the effects. Especially since the immunity buffs are generally all from the cleric (NPP, CC), so if they get dispelled youre boned; and mages or F/M who get dispelled lose all their important self-buffs all at once.

[Demivrgvs]

Short answer: making Dispel opcode check for each effect separately can only be done by hacking the exe (aka by ToBEx), if it is doable at all.

 

Long answer: if you ask me, I never really liked Dispel Magic. A single spell which can counter almost any other spell in the game (even multiple higher level spells within a large AoE - not to mention PnP Dispel can even be used as a "counterspell" against things such as a Fireball) shouldn't be a "cheap" 3rd level spell imo. The thing is that this spell is kinda OP when cast by the higher level character against a lower level opponent, but it's an almost useless spell for a lower level character fighting a tougher opponent. Making it affect each targeted spell separately (as per PnP) would be a huge improvement balance-wise imo, but overall I would probably still not like the spell so much, because it's a tool to make the strongest character stronger, while the weaker becomes even more vulnerable. Perhaps it would be better if the % chance of dispelling could always remain at least between 25%-75%, but unfortunately it goes to 1% or 100% quite easily? Anyway it doesn't matter imo, we cannot change Dispel Magic (I once proposed to cap it at level 20 to at least prevent it from becoming so OP when used by level 20+ archmages such as liches but there was no consensus) and thus it's best to just think how to deal with it, perhaps proposing proper counters, making sure there not a huge HD difference between party and AI opponents, or just not relying so much on dispellable buffs.

[kreso]

mages or F/M who get dispelled lose all their important self-buffs all at once.

That actually makes me happy.

Then again, you keep your Contingeny with PFMW, your Minor sequencer with Invisibilty/Blur, your Sequencer with Imp.invisibility/Stoneskin/Fireshield, your Trigger with PFMW/PFME/Misled, and your Chain Contingency with 3xADHW.

 

P.S.

I think KR's Inquisitor's Dispel is actually spot-on in terms of balance.

[ancalimohtar]

Short answer: making Dispel opcode check for each effect separately can only be done by hacking the exe (aka by ToBEx), if it is doable at all.

 

Long answer: if you ask me, I never really liked Dispel Magic. A single spell which can counter almost any other spell in the game (even multiple higher level spells within a large AoE - not to mention PnP Dispel can even be used as a "counterspell" against things such as a Fireball) shouldn't be a "cheap" 3rd level spell imo. The thing is that this spell is kinda OP when cast by the higher level character against a lower level opponent, but it's an almost useless spell for a lower level character fighting a tougher opponent. Making it affect each targeted spell separately (as per PnP) would be a huge improvement balance-wise imo, but overall I would probably still not like the spell so much, because it's a tool to make the strongest character stronger, while the weaker becomes even more vulnerable. Perhaps it would be better if the % chance of dispelling could always remain at least between 25%-75%, but unfortunately it goes to 1% or 100% quite easily? Anyway it doesn't matter imo, we cannot change Dispel Magic (I once proposed to cap it at level 20 to at least prevent it from becoming so OP when used by level 20+ archmages such as liches but there was no consensus) and thus it's best to just think how to deal with it, perhaps proposing proper counters, making sure there not a huge HD difference between party and AI opponents, or just not relying so much on dispellable buffs.

 

Let me just say that that is EXACTLY my opinion on Dispel/Remove. The fact is that with SCS or other difficulty-enhancing mods, enemy mages invariably outlevel you, so you get super screwed if they cast dispel. Honestly if DavidW wanted to double the difficulty of every encounter that had an enemy mage, he would code them to throw out a Remove Magic twice per fight. It'd be a bloodbath.

 

I was thinking of suggesting reducing the speed at which success increases/decreases with caster level difference. Instead of capping the chance at 25% or 75%, or how it is now, just start off with a 50% chance of dispel at equal level, then increase or decrease by 3% per level. A level 20 Lich against a level 13 party would have a 71% chance of dispelling any given effect (assuming splitting everything out were possible with TobEx). You'd end up with more than a quarter of your buffs still intact, even at that significant level difference, and you could make do. But stripping you naked most of the time, while leaving you intact 30% of the time just encourages save-scumming, even if unintentional. You get dispelled, die, reload, die again, then the third time, your buffs stay on you, and you win. You're not going to reload just to do it the hard way, are you?

 

But if we really can't change Dispel, then SR v4's Spell Shield becomes ridiculously important. Especially since you'll have to recast it whenever enemies throw a secret word at you. Maybe Shield of the Archons could protect against dispel, and IR could drop in an item that gives you immunity. That means all clerics and mages can get semi-immune, and one other character would be fully immune. I could live with that.

[kreso]

The fact is that with SCS or other difficulty-enhancing mods, enemy mages invariably outlevel you, so you get super screwed if they cast dispel.

Enter Haer'dalis, most OP character in BG world.

 

Maybe Shield of the Archons could protect against dispel

I would rather it protected clerics from AoE damage, and remain unaffected by Dispel.

[ancalimohtar]

Maybe Shield of the Archons could protect against dispel

I would rather it protected clerics from AoE damage, and remain unaffected by Dispel.

 

Mages can cast Prot Magical Energy on clerics; I wouldn't really waste a level 7 slot (instead of Gate?) on that. I would, however, if it protected from being wiped clean of buffs.