Cleric Remix suggestions

[Guest Gay Lord]

The CR mod looks very cool and I plan to play it when I restart a new tutu game. Looking over the readme, I see a few things I would change though, and since it says it's beta and to come here for comments, well, here I am. Let me repeat though that I have NOT played the mod yet; my suggestions are based solely from the readme.

 

 

1) Lathander is the God of dawn, and strongly opposed to undead. The level 9 spell should be False Dawn, instead of Flame Strike. None of the other spells damage undead (specifically). If you feel that Morninglords shouldn't get a 6th level spell for a 5th level slot, note that they have Hold Undead, a 3rd level spell in their 4th level slot, so this sort of balances out. Plus, a dawn spell that hurts undead is almost custom made for Morninglords, and so should be gained earlier than other clerics.

 

2) Talos and Kossuth offer 1%/level electricity and 2%/level fire resistance respectively. There are far more fire attacks in the games than electrical attacks so, imo, if anything, the numbers should be reversed: 2% electricity and 1% fire. Looking at the innate benefits that the other kits offer though, I'm inclined to think 2% anything is too much. Also, these percentages offer little good at low levels, when they are needed, and are fairly superfluous at higher levels.

 

So, I suggest one of the following. Either offer a flat, aggregate bonus of 20% resistance to each (averaging 1st level through 40th, or comparing to the flat 20% resistances offered to cavaliers), or lower Kossuth to also offer 1%/level resistance. I favor the former.

 

3) The Earthquake spell for Talos is weak for its level. Storm of Vengeance would be better here, but it too is weak. While I think both need to be beefed up, that's not in the mod's purview. Therefore, I'll just suggest that SoV take the final spell slot.

 

4) Selune offers Faerie Fire and Moonblade. I assume these spells are included in the mod.

 

5) Selune is the goddess of lycanthropes (shapechangers) and travelers. I suggest replacing Free Action(4th) and Sunstrike(5th) with Polymorph Self and Dimension Door. I don't know what Moonblade does, but Dispel Magic strikes me as a possible 3rd level slot (moons and stars make me think of Dispel for some reason, perhaps the twinkling?), especially to counter the blinding effect of Sharites.

 

6) I have no problem with Silverstars summoning air elementals, but don't know if they should have to fight for control as mages do. Maybe Aerial Servant would be better?

 

7) Nightcloaks of Shar with chakrams are cool! I assume the graphic is something similar to Melf's Meteors or the HLA ability of energy discs. If the graphic could be energy discs coloured purple (or at least black) that would be very cool!

 

8) The level 14 spell of Power Word, Stun for Nightcloaks should be Power Word, Blind, imo. Stun is limited in who it can affect by hit points. By the time these levels are reached, most opponents will have too many hp, forcing you to wait to use it until foes are wounded, and then why bother casting your highest level spell on guys that are nearly dead? PW Blind not only has no hp limit, it's in keeping with Shar, what with Blind being gained at 1st level, plus it might affect nearby opponents too, making it an appropriate, useful top level effect for Nightcloaks. I thought briefly of Nature's Beauty, but decided it should remain a druid exclusive; they already have so few. One other tentative suggestion is Black Blade of Disaster (9th wizard).

 

9) Painbearers might also gain the minor benefit of being immune to fatigue, such as from no rest or after a Haste spell, or even casting restorations. The kit seems a bit light on desireability.

 

10) Have Authlim gain Symbol, Fear for their last spell instead of Mantle.

 

11) One of Xvim's forms is a black cloud, so perhaps have Death Fog for the 6th slot instead of Death. He is more a god of suffering than death, since, after all, as a bhaalspawn, that's YOUR job!

 

12) IIRC, Oghma's favorite weapons were fisticuffs, followed by the cudgel. Since Ilmater seems to have the Hand, and since lorekeepers are sage-y, mage type priests, I think the staff (or the club), would be more appropriate than a longsword.

 

In the 1st edition Deities and Demigods, Oghma is called 'The Binder', for his ability to entrap any demon/devil in a special container. He is also said to know the truenames of all non-divines, and anyone with this knowledge can control the mortal, or force them to save vs death or die. So I suggest possibly inserting Domination and/or PW Kill into the list.

 

I suggest replacing Luck with Power Word, Sleep (from weak knowledge of mortals' truenames), Know Alignment (with the Oversight Mod's expansion of the spell), or Detect Illusion (knowledge of the truth).

 

Remove Magic and Secret Word seem a bit redundant, especially with Ruby Ray later on. Not sure what to suggest other than those above. I seem to recall Melissan using a Banish spell on my conjured critters in the final battle (with Ascension). Maybe giving that as a spell to lorekeepers.

 

13) It would be nice if all the clerics could at least gain one star (or possibly two) in weapons that were favored for their deity. I see in the beginning of the readme that Bioware hardcoding makes that difficult. A pity.

 

14) Lastly, major/minor access is listed for all the kits. While I can dig up my PH2, not everyone has access to the old manuals and may not know what spells are in which sphere. Even for those of us who do, this still doesn't indicate in the end what spells each kit gets without a lot of referencing and writing to figure it all out. A simple list indicating exactly what spells each kit gets would be far better imo.

 

Finally, some indication (hints, full details?) of what super special secret powers top level clerics get would be nice.

 

Just my thoughts. Good mod!

[Andyr]

The CR mod looks very cool and I plan to play it when I restart a new tutu game.  Looking over the readme, I see a few things I would change though, and since it says it's beta and to come here for comments, well, here I am.  Let me repeat though that I have NOT played the mod yet; my suggestions are based solely from the readme.

 

Thanks, and thanks for coming here.

 

Before responding to your points on innate spells I will point out that due to the way the engine works we are considering just adding the spells to the spellbook instead, so a lot of the spells will change too.

 

1)  Lathander is the God of dawn, and strongly opposed to undead.  The level 9 spell should be False Dawn, instead of Flame Strike.  None of the other spells damage undead (specifically).  If you feel that Morninglords shouldn't get a 6th level spell for a 5th level slot, note that they have Hold Undead, a 3rd level spell in their 4th level slot, so this sort of balances out.  Plus, a dawn spell that hurts undead is almost custom made for Morninglords, and so should be gained earlier than other clerics.

 

They can already cast False Dawn as Clerics.

 

2)  Talos and Kossuth offer 1%/level electricity and 2%/level fire resistance respectively.  There are far more fire attacks in the games than electrical attacks so, imo, if anything, the numbers should be reversed...:

 

... or lower Kossuth to also offer 1%/level resistance.  I favor the former.

 

I prefer an approach that improves with level. Also, Talos also gets Destructive Blow as an ability, so increasing the electric resistance would increase this kit's power. I don't think that 2% a level is too much for Kossuth.

 

3)  The Earthquake spell for Talos is weak for its level.  Storm of Vengeance would be better here, but it too is weak.  While I think both need to be beefed up, that's not in the mod's purview.  Therefore, I'll just suggest that SoV take the final spell slot.

 

Storm of Vengeance is available as an HLA.

 

4)  Selune offers Faerie Fire and Moonblade.  I assume these spells are included in the mod.

 

Yep.

 

5)  Selune is the goddess of lycanthropes (shapechangers) and travelers.  I suggest replacing Free Action(4th) and Sunstrike(5th) with Polymorph Self and Dimension Door.  I don't know what Moonblade does, but Dispel Magic strikes me as a possible 3rd level slot (moons and stars make me think of Dispel for some reason, perhaps the twinkling?), especially to counter the blinding effect of Sharites.

 

Lycanthropes worship Selune but that does not mean her Clerics are Lycanthropes or have experience with it. I prefer Free Action to Polymorph Self, definitely. Polymorphing is also not the same as being a Lycanthrope. Interesting idea about Dimension Door, though. Moonblade is an offensive spell summoning a Moonblade for the caster to use. And Dispel Magic is already available as a level 3 spell.

 

6)  I have no problem with Silverstars summoning air elementals, but don't know if they should have to fight for control as mages do.  Maybe Aerial Servant would be better?

 

Ooh, perhaps, yeh. Or something like that.

 

7)  Nightcloaks of Shar with chakrams are cool!  I assume the graphic is something similar to Melf's Meteors or the HLA ability of energy discs.  If the graphic could be energy discs coloured purple (or at least black) that would be very cool!

 

I don't recall the animation, actually, but that's an idea if it's not what we already do.

 

8)  The level 14 spell of Power Word, Stun for Nightcloaks should be Power Word, Blind, imo.  Stun is limited in who it can affect by hit points.  By the time these levels are reached, most opponents will have too many hp, forcing you to wait to use it until foes are wounded, and then why bother casting your highest level spell on guys that are nearly dead?  PW Blind not only has no hp limit, it's in keeping with Shar, what with Blind being gained at 1st level, plus it might affect nearby opponents too, making it an appropriate, useful top level effect for Nightcloaks.  I thought briefly of Nature's Beauty, but decided it should remain a druid exclusive; they already have so few.  One other tentative suggestion is Black Blade of Disaster (9th wizard).

 

Interesting idea but IIRC Clerics can cast Pw:B anyway. And Blade Blade is too high level.

[Andyr]

9)  Painbearers might also gain the minor benefit of being immune to fatigue, such as from no rest or after a Haste spell, or even casting restorations.  The kit seems a bit light on desireability.

 

Nice idea.

 

10)  Have Authlim gain Symbol, Fear for their last spell instead of Mantle.

 

11)  One of Xvim's forms is a black cloud, so perhaps have Death Fog for the 6th slot instead of Death.  He is more a god of suffering than death, since, after all, as a bhaalspawn, that's YOUR job!

 

They can already cast Symbol, Fear as Clerics, and besides that I like Mantle for the image of rulership if conveys.

 

About Death Fog: Maybe.

 

12)  IIRC, Oghma's favorite weapons were fisticuffs, followed by the cudgel.  Since Ilmater seems to have the Hand, and since lorekeepers are sage-y, mage type priests, I think the staff (or the club), would be more appropriate than a longsword.

 

In the 1st edition Deities and Demigods, Oghma is called 'The Binder', for his ability to entrap any demon/devil in a special container.  He is also said to know the truenames of all non-divines, and anyone with this knowledge can control the mortal, or force them to save vs death or die.  So I suggest possibly inserting Domination and/or PW Kill into the list. 

 

I suggest replacing Luck with Power Word, Sleep (from weak knowledge of mortals' truenames), Know Alignment (with the Oversight Mod's expansion of the spell), or Detect Illusion (knowledge of the truth). 

 

Remove Magic and Secret Word seem a bit redundant, especially with Ruby Ray later on.  Not sure what to suggest other than those above.  I seem to recall Melissan using a Banish spell on my conjured critters in the final battle (with Ascension).  Maybe giving that as a spell to lorekeepers.

 

His favoured weapon is Longsword. Definitely, in 3E at least. Though yes, I do remember reading about some groups of wrestling monks that followe him. Some of those spell ideas are good, though.

 

13)  It would be nice if all the clerics could at least gain one star (or possibly two) in weapons that were favored for their deity.  I see in the beginning of the readme that Bioware hardcoding makes that difficult.  A pity. 

 

Yes. That's why we made the 'Spirit Weapon' ability.

 

14)  Lastly, major/minor access is listed for all the kits.  While I can dig up my PH2, not everyone has access to the old manuals and may not know what spells are in which sphere.  Even for those of us who do, this still doesn't indicate in the end what spells each kit gets without a lot of referencing and writing to figure it all out.  A simple list indicating exactly what spells each kit gets would be far better imo.

 

It would take up an awful lot of space. Plus, IIRC the downloadable package has a list of spells by sphere as a spreadsheet, and which spells each deity grants.

 

Finally, some indication (hints, full details?) of what super special secret powers top level clerics get would be nice.

 

What super special secret powers? If you mean the HLA list, then yeh, that should probably get documented somewhere. But probably in a ReadMe rather than ingame, as no other BioWare kit does it.

[Guest Guest]

Before responding to your points on innate spells I will point out that due to the way the engine works we are considering just adding the spells to the spellbook instead, so a lot of the spells will change too.

 

Maybe I'm not clear on the purpose/nature of these spells. Are they meant to serve sort of like Domain spells from 3E; you get your normal slots, plus one slot per level is a specific spell? Or are they simply going to be an expansion of the selectable spells of each level for clerics? If the latter, do you mean to say that clerics will lose one slot per level simply for the option of memorizing some mage spells?

 

With several of my spell revisions, you point out that clerics already get those spells at those levels. That's true, but that's the same for several of the spells already listed for the kits, such as Flame Sttrike for Lathander or Far Sight for Helm.

 

Soooo, I don't really see what they're for then. If these are meant to add non-class spells to the kits' spell lists, shouldn't they all be mage (or possibly druid) spells then?

 

I prefer an approach that improves with level. wink.gif Also, Talos also gets Destructive Blow as an ability, so increasing the electric resistance would increase this kit's power. I don't think that 2% a level is too much for Kossuth.

 

In general, I do too. I'm just thinking that the low resistance through bg1 will wind up only taking a point or two damage off attacks. I guess the storm shield and Prot from elec. later on will make up for only getting 1%.

 

 

6)  I have no problem with Silverstars summoning air elementals, but don't know if they should have to fight for control as mages do.  Maybe Aerial Servant would be better?

 

 

Ooh, perhaps, yeh. Or something like that.

 

IIRC, AS were pretty weak. Maybe Dire AS? Buff AS? AS +1? How 'bout 2 AS?

 

I suggested Black Blade as a possible option just to get it in the game. What mage is gonna take that over dragon breath or time stop? Plus, they then have to go into battle to use it, a place NO mage wants to be. Since Shar is loss and forgetfullness, I thought the disintegration blade might be apporpriate. But I can also see where it's too powerful.

 

His favoured weapon is Longsword. Definitely, in 3E at least. Though yes, I do remember reading about some groups of wrestling monks that followe him. Some of those spell ideas are good, though.

 

Hmm, I haven't bothered with the latest deity book. Still say staff or club is better, especially if we're going with 2E rules (although, as with painbearers, giving some usefullness to the kit isn't bad).

 

As for his spell selection, it seems the lists make him into a god of dispelling, rather than a god of knowledge. I do like the Lore bit.

 

Yes. sad.gif That's why we made the 'Spirit Weapon' ability.

 

I assume this replaces the Spirit weapon spell, so you can use it several times a day? If so they are a very welcome addition, making that spell now desirable. I remember unstoning (destoning?) Branwen at the fair. My spirits went up when I saw she had a cool unique abiliity of spirit hammer several times a day. Then my spirits dropped when I realized that she had spirit hammer several times a day. What a waste.

 

What super special secret powers? If you mean the HLA list, then yeh, that should probably get documented somewhere. But probably in a ReadMe rather than ingame, as no other BioWare kit does it.

 

High Level Abilities (HLAs) are also restricted by sphere and some kits have unique HLAs pertaining to their deity.

 

Maybe someone's dying to be able to summon magic pineapples as a HLA, and only after spending months playing do they find out their cleric of Chiquita Banana doesn't get it, but rather some other kit does.

[NiGHTMARE]

Hmm, I haven't bothered with the latest deity book.  Still say staff or club is better, especially if we're going with 2E rules (although, as with painbearers, giving some usefullness to the kit isn't bad).

The long sword is Oghma's favoured weapon in 2E as well.

[Guest Guest]

Which sourcebook?

[NiGHTMARE]

Faiths & Avatars.

[Andyr]

Maybe I'm not clear on the purpose/nature of these spells.  Are they meant to serve sort of like Domain spells from 3E; you get your normal slots, plus one slot per level is a specific spell?

 

Yes, exactly. So if we change them to just be added to the spellbook then we'll remove the 1 slot a day penalty. See the long discussion thread above.

 

With several of my spell revisions, you point out that clerics already get those spells at those levels.  That's true, but that's the same for several of the spells already listed for the kits, such as Flame Sttrike for Lathander or Far Sight for Helm. 

 

Yeh, but if we do the adding-to-spellbook route, which we probably will, then these'll have to be change too.

 

Soooo, I don't really see what they're for then.  If these are meant to add non-class spells to the kits' spell lists, shouldn't they all be mage (or possibly druid) spells then?   

 

They mostly are, and yeh, the plan is to make them all Mage spells or kit-specific new spells from the various sourcebooks. Druid spells per se don't exist, they're just mostly Plant or Animal sphere.

 

Ooh, perhaps, yeh. Or something like that.

 

IIRC, AS were pretty weak.  Maybe Dire AS?  Buff AS?  AS +1?  How 'bout 2 AS?

 

Well, it's a spell of the equivalent level is the plan.

 

I suggested Black Blade as a possible option just to get it in the game.  What mage is gonna take that over dragon breath or time stop?  Plus, they then have to go into battle to use it, a place NO mage wants to be.  Since Shar is loss and forgetfullness, I thought the disintegration blade might be apporpriate.  But I can also see where it's too powerful.

 

Yeh, the level difference is a big issue, but also we want them to match the deities' portfolio.

 

As for his spell selection, it seems the lists make him into a god of dispelling, rather than a god of knowledge.  I do like the Lore bit.

 

Oghma was a tough one to pick spells for.

 

Yes. sad.gif That's why we made the 'Spirit Weapon' ability.

 

I assume this replaces the Spirit weapon spell, so you can use it several times a day? If so they are a very welcome addition, making that spell now desirable. I remember unstoning (destoning?) Branwen at the fair. My spirits went up when I saw she had a cool unique abiliity of spirit hammer several times a day. Then my spirits dropped when I realized that she had spirit hammer several times a day. What a waste.

 

No - Spirit Weapon still exists as a spell. This version gives them a weapon appropriate to their deity, as detailed in the ReadMe. Branwen in Tutu has an extra spirit weapon spell, because she had one in plain BG1 too.

 

High Level Abilities (HLAs) are also restricted by sphere and some kits have unique HLAs pertaining to their deity.

 

Oh, right. Well we'll get these listed when version 1.0 comes out; most have a unique HLA now but there's a few missing gaps.

[Guest Guest]

I couldn't find my copy and was using Forgotten Realms Adventures, which is pretty sparse. I've just found it though, and see that his avatar is the one that uses the longsword. His lorekeepers still like to grapple.

 

In any case, I'll accept longsword now.

[Guest Guest]

So how does their Spirit Weapon ability work? Is it a once per day thing, a permanent feature, ... ?

[Andyr]

It is detailed in the kit descriptions and ReadMe.

 

Essentially, once per day they can create a version of their deity's favoured weapon to use. As levels increase it gets more powerful and lasts longer.