ranger cleric dual class

[jmerry]

... oh, right. Pushing to ranger level 16 before dual-classing would only be a single point of base THAC0 gain in the long run. And a single point of breath saves. Really not worth it. Ranger level 17 would get you slightly better spell saves, but at that point you're looking at nearly 5 million XP before you even complete the dual.

With the standard spell progressions for the BG series, you gain access to level 3 ranger spells (Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Summon Insects) at ranger level 12. Then level 13 as a warrior is a big boost, with a major save boost that the priest won't eclipse in anything but death saves until level 19 and that 1/2 APR. It's definitely a sweet spot.

Actually, there's one circumstance I could see going to a higher ranger level in the dual being worthwhile: if you're using a different spell progression table. Tweaks Anthology has two options that allow for rangers to reach higher-level spells; one gets you level 4 spells at ranger level 15, and the other reaches level 4 spells at ranger level 17. Or if you're playing Icewind Dale, you already have something like that. If you're getting better spell access out of it, maybe it's worth going higher. If not, it isn't.

[Guest Morgoth]

12 hours ago, jmerry said:

... oh, right. Pushing to ranger level 16 before dual-classing would only be a single point of base THAC0 gain in the long run. And a single point of breath saves. Really not worth it. Ranger level 17 would get you slightly better spell saves, but at that point you're looking at nearly 5 million XP before you even complete the dual.

With the standard spell progressions for the BG series, you gain access to level 3 ranger spells (Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Summon Insects) at ranger level 12. Then level 13 as a warrior is a big boost, with a major save boost that the priest won't eclipse in anything but death saves until level 19 and that 1/2 APR. It's definitely a sweet spot.

Actually, there's one circumstance I could see going to a higher ranger level in the dual being worthwhile: if you're using a different spell progression table. Tweaks Anthology has two options that allow for rangers to reach higher-level spells; one gets you level 4 spells at ranger level 15, and the other reaches level 4 spells at ranger level 17. Or if you're playing Icewind Dale, you already have something like that. If you're getting better spell access out of it, maybe it's worth going higher. If not, it isn't.

Isn't it 3 points of Thac0 from level 13 to 16? I was checking the table here: https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Ranger
 

and before you told me I would be getting the spell levels that I would be casting the most, 16 felt like the perfect spot (3/3/3)

but currently it's level 21, the one where you get thac0 0.

[Thacobell]

So, are people actively tryring to find a dual that only comes online in time for the final boss at this point?

[Guest Morgoth]

Subtledoctor, I think Thac0 6 is good, but not that good

Jmerry, I seem to have missed your earlier post here: 

Well... Thanks! You solved all my doubts.


 

[jmerry]

9 hours ago, Guest Morgoth said:

Isn't it 3 points of Thac0 from level 13 to 16?

Yes, but this is about a dual class. Dual-class characters (once the dual is completed) look at both classes' tables and use whichever's better. So .. THAC0 8 from ranger 13, THAC0 6 from cleric 22+, THAC0 5 from ranger 16. If you have 15 or fewer levels in ranger, the cleric's eventual 6 base THAC0 will determine the final THAC0.

Saves work on the same principle, and you're very likely to take some saves from one class and others from the other.

[Guest Morgoth]

On 11/4/2022 at 9:31 PM, subtledoctor said:

Clerics have very good thac0 progression, they reach thac0 6. That plus STR plus magic weapons plus some buffs is totally good enough to hit any enemy in the game.

The level 13 dual is solely about the 1/2 APR bump.

 

On 11/5/2022 at 7:35 PM, jmerry said:

Yes, but this is about a dual class. Dual-class characters (once the dual is completed) look at both classes' tables and use whichever's better. So .. THAC0 8 from ranger 13, THAC0 6 from cleric 22+, THAC0 5 from ranger 16. If you have 15 or fewer levels in ranger, the cleric's eventual 6 base THAC0 will determine the final THAC0.

Saves work on the same principle, and you're very likely to take some saves from one class and others from the other.

Thank you both for the explanation. So now I have only to ask myself if 1/2 APR is worth 4 levels. I'm not exactly sure it is, tbh.

[subtledoctor]

TBH I wouldn't even wait til level 9. I would dual at level 7, right after the first warrior APR bonus. Waiting til level 9 gets you all of one extra proficiency point. BUT:

1. Rangers already get two free pips in dual-wielding
2. If you dual at level 9, then your 8th-level cleric pip cannot be put on top of any proficiency chosen as a ranger.
3. You get to be your fully-realized self 600,000 XP earlier.

Admittedly #2 is more relevant for fighter->clerics. But to me #3 trumps all other factors anyway. I always favor early duals.

EDIT - and, I guess I forgot what happens with spellcasting if you dual before you have any ranger spells at all. It's been so long since  I  played with the vanilla game systems that I no longer know (or care) about all the nitpicky ins and outs.

[jmerry]

7 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Waiting til level 9 gets you all of one extra proficiency point.

One extra proficiency point and some extra hit points (two levels of slightly better hit dice and warrior Con bonuses), at the cost of one level of cleric while you're progressing. Also, you gain access to level 1 druid-only spells ... Entangle.

The wrinkle here is how this interacts with campaign experience caps. Ranger 7 is 75K XP, during BG1. Dual then, and you play the rest of that campaign as a cleric with extra hit points, finishing at 7/7. Then you finish the dual early in the next campaign.

If you aren't running SoD, a level 8 (at the very beginning of BG2) or level 9 (as soon as you can) dual allows you to take advantage of the dramatically faster XP gain in early BG2 to minimize your downtime.

If you are running SoD, a level 8 dual at the beginning of the campaign will allow you to reach level 9 as a cleric before the campaign's end. A level 9 dual will have you play the rest of the campaign as a cleric with extra hit points, finishing at 9/8. Then you finish the dual early in SoA.

If you hold off past the end of SoD without dual-classing yet and start SoA as a 500K XP ranger, pushing to at least 600K XP and ranger level 10 before you do it looks like a pretty good deal. That gets you level 2 druid-only spells (Charm Person or Mammal) at the cost of half a cleric level while you're progressing and another one cleric level slower to complete the dual.

The level 13 dual is undoubtedly the most powerful in the very long run; ranger 13/cleric 36 blows away ranger 9/cleric 39 since cleric levels past about 30 only earn you a few hit points, extra levels on your Turn Undead and Dispel Magic checks, and a spell slot every three or four levels. But it takes 1.2 million XP to go from level 9 to level 13 as a ranger, and that's effectively costing you a bit more than five levels of cleric while you're progressing. At 2 million total XP, would you rather be a ranger 9/cleric 15 or a ranger 13/cleric 10?

[Guest Morgoth]

16 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

TBH I wouldn't even wait til level 9. I would dual at level 7, right after the first warrior APR bonus. Waiting til level 9 gets you all of one extra proficiency point. BUT:

1. Rangers already get two free pips in dual-wielding
2. If you dual at level 9, then your 8th-level cleric pip cannot be put on top of any proficiency chosen as a ranger.
3. You get to be your fully-realized self 600,000 XP earlier.

Admittedly #2 is more relevant for fighter->clerics. But to me #3 trumps all other factors anyway. I always favor early duals.

EDIT - and, I guess I forgot what happens with spellcasting if you dual before you have any ranger spells at all. It's been so long since  I  played with the vanilla game systems that I no longer know (or care) about all the nitpicky ins and outs.

I read a lot about the level 7 duals, but I never thought you would advocate for it   - while I get what you are looking for, especially in bg1, I think that as a player I can still squish another thing or two without sacrificing the enjoyment I should get from the game.

15 hours ago, jmerry said:

One extra proficiency point and some extra hit points (two levels of slightly better hit dice and warrior Con bonuses), at the cost of one level of cleric while you're progressing. Also, you gain access to level 1 druid-only spells ... Entangle.

The level 13 dual is undoubtedly the most powerful in the very long run; ranger 13/cleric 36 blows away ranger 9/cleric 39 since cleric levels past about 30 only earn you a few hit points, extra levels on your Turn Undead and Dispel Magic checks, and a spell slot every three or four levels. But it takes 1.2 million XP to go from level 9 to level 13 as a ranger, and that's effectively costing you a bit more than five levels of cleric while you're progressing. At 2 million total XP, would you rather be a ranger 9/cleric 15 or a ranger 13/cleric 10?

Consider that I will be playing with no level cap (both on BG1 and BG2), with the BG2 xp points for scrolls and locks in BG1.

I'm not sure ranger 13 blows the other dual away, considering that I would like to be able to turn undead well, especially liches and demiliches (not considering dispel magic).

Not being able to do that in SoA, where the class would (and should!) probably shine with the vampires, is not that great. It's even truer that with no level cap, I could still go ranger 13/cleric 40 (and probably leaving at least one npc behind, such as Anomen/viconia, because I don't need him/her to get even more xp), but who knows.

Paralysis of choices.

[jmerry]

In order to have a chance at turning undead, you need your turn level to match or exceed the undead target's level. This per-round chance increases to 100% with a three level advantage. Add five levels to those in order to upgrade that turning to destruction/control - an eight-level advantage means you're guaranteed to splat the enemy.

Some levels for notable liches in the base game: Kangaxx the Demilich 27, Watcher's Keep demilich 27, Shade Lich 20, Elemental Lich 20, Azamantes 25, Vongoethe 30, Odamaron 20. And the generic liches you meet at random spawn points are only level 11 despite their access to level 9 spells. It's actually shockingly easy to splat liches when you have a full cleric, even a late-starting one. (OK, SCS increases levels for liches pretty much across the board. But those last few cleric levels are hardly ever relevant to turning checks, because you already have enough to splat almost everything.)

[Guest Morgoth]

2 hours ago, jmerry said:

In order to have a chance at turning undead, you need your turn level to match or exceed the undead target's level. This per-round chance increases to 100% with a three level advantage. Add five levels to those in order to upgrade that turning to destruction/control - an eight-level advantage means you're guaranteed to splat the enemy.

Some levels for notable liches in the base game: Kangaxx the Demilich 27, Watcher's Keep demilich 27, Shade Lich 20, Elemental Lich 20, Azamantes 25, Vongoethe 30, Odamaron 20. And the generic liches you meet at random spawn points are only level 11 despite their access to level 9 spells. It's actually shockingly easy to splat liches when you have a full cleric, even a late-starting one. (OK, SCS increases levels for liches pretty much across the board. But those last few cleric levels are hardly ever relevant to turning checks, because you already have enough to splat almost everything.)

I decided in the end what I will be going for: Ranger 9/cleric 40.

The thing is, with the spellbook unlocked for ranger, I can't see 4 levels for
1) 1/2 APR
2) a boost in saves that will get redundant
worth it.

 

[Guest Morgoth]

I forgot to thank you Jmerry and to thank you, Subtledoctor.

I appreciate your help.

[suy]

For the curious, here are some charts that compare the XP amounts that are needed to start/complete some level combinations. The axis need some love to look better/useful, but I hope is still useful. Indeed, at level 16 it's a lot of total XP.

[Morgoth]

On 11/4/2022 at 10:11 PM, jmerry said:

With the standard spell progressions for the BG series, you gain access to level 3 ranger spells (Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Summon Insects) at ranger level 12. Then level 13 as a warrior is a big boost, with a major save boost that the priest won't eclipse in anything but death saves until level 19 and that 1/2 APR. It's definitely a sweet spot.

 

are you telling that cleric >19 still has worse saves than ranger 13, apart from death?

Edited June 9, 2023 by Morgoth

[jmerry]

Base saves for a level 19+ cleric (death/wand/poly/breath/spell): 2/6/5/8/7. Base saves for a level 13-14 fighter or ranger: 5/7/6/5/8. So yes, a level 19 cleric surpasses the level 13 ranger saving throws in almost everything. At that point, only your breath save still comes from the warrior table.