SubtleMods: Combat Skills and Proficiencies

[subtledoctor]

This consists of the various proficiency-related components of Scales of Balance, cleaned up and given their own focus.

The readme is here.

You can download the mod here.

Contents:

• Weapon Proficiency Overhaul - this completely revamps the way weapon proficiencies work. It changes the system from 5 points-per-weapon to 4 points (because the old "high mastery" point was utterly useless, only serving to slow fighters down on their way to grandmastery); and clearly delineates how many points you can get: fighters can reach 4, rangers/paladins 3, priests/rogues 2, and mages 1. Some kits can get more, i.e. Swashbucklers can reach 3 like rangers. APR bonuses are simplified: each point above 1 gives you +1/2 APR. (This will still only affect warriors, unless you install the "APR On Spec" component below.)
• Combat Skills System - this component creates a bunch of feats which can be obtained by spending proficiency points. Backstab bonuses and Set Snares abilities are now tied to how many proficiency points you put into them. You can gain extra bonuses to melee thac0, ranged thac0, and armor class (this becomes the means by which Archers and Swashbucklers get their combat bonuses). Thrown weapons are difficult to use unless you spend points on the skill (but halflings get specialization in this). And there are a whole host of individual one-off feats that you can get - see the Readme for the whole list.
• Weapon Category Grouping - this component makes sensible grouping of weapons proficiencies: long bows and short bows are put together, clubs and maces, spears and halberds, daggers and darts, long swords and bastard swords. Note: this component is automatically included as part of the earlier two (freeing up some proficiencies is necessary for technical reasons).
• Fighting Style Overhaul - this completely rebalances the four fighting styles. being specialized in single-weapon style gives you a +1/2 APR bonus, with a bonus to thac0; dual-wielding thac0 penalties are dependent on the size of the two weapons, and can give you a bonus to melee armor class; two-handed weapons style gives big damage and crit chance bonuses; and shield-fighting style focuses less on missile AC, instead giving you a once-per-round passive shield bash ability that bludgeons and can knock down a nearby enemy.
• APR On Spec - this allows any classes to get an APR benefit of being specialized in weapons, rather than just warriors. It works with the vanilla proficiency system as well as with the systems above.

Cheers.

[Thacobell]

Oh, it appers to be happening. And here I am 3/4ths thorugh modding BG2. It never fails, haha.
I'm still not a huge fan of not being abe to dual wield bastard swords or katanas with the overhaul, though. Playing a darksong knight and not being able to dual wield bastard swords feels wrong.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Thacobell said:

Oh, it appers to be happening. And here I am 3/4ths thorugh modding BG2. It never fails, haha.

I’m ~6 hours into an EET game with all the old versions of my mods, my big question is do I burn a weekend creating another install, or do I just play for the next few months with my old mods? 

For you, honestly there is not really much difference. May not be worth starting the install over. For me, I have a good solid install… but it’s probably a good idea to install the new versions so I can find and fix any issues. Sigh.

1 hour ago, Thacobell said:

I'm still not a huge fan of not being abe to dual wield bastard swords or katanas with the overhaul, though. Playing a darksong knight and not being able to dual wield bastard swords feels wrong.

Seems silly to me - in the physical sense of “how could anyone actually do that” but OTOH this is good feedback, maybe I could make it optional. 

[Thacobell]

Yeah, I went ahead and a, re-doing the install.If I had finished by the time I saw these, that might have been another thing.

"Seems silly to me - in the physical sense of “how could anyone actually do that” but OTOH this is good feedback, maybe I could make it optional.  "
Oh, its 100% silly, and my feedback is entirely from a roleplay perspective and not a mechanical one. Dual wielded bastard swords are just kind of Eillistraee's trademark.
 

[4udr4n]

4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Seems silly to me - in the physical sense of “how could anyone actually do that” but OTOH this is good feedback, maybe I could make it optional. 

Warning, I'm a bit of a HEMA nerd, these comments assume that we are shooting for realism and I recognise that may not be your or other players' priority.

Here's an interesting video on dual wielding, with mention of dual katanas. The book of 5 rings also covers dual katanas, so there's a historical source, bastard swords, not so much.

That said, the sword categories in BG (and D&D in general across all editions) are anachronistic and inaccurate.

With regards to dual wielding we could imagine:

• Long Sword = Arming Sword or similar "cut and thrust" sword. Definitely dual-wieldable. Specifically not a longsword because...
• Bastard Sword = A Longsword! Clearly supposed to be a longer sword with an extended grip for 2-handed use, usable in one hand, but not optimal.
• Katana - A Katana, mainly used 2 handed but able to be used one-handed as above.
• Two-handed Sword = Zweihander, Odachi or Greatsword, definitely too big to wield one--handed.

My suggestion would be:

1. Any weapon usable in 1 hand can be used in either hand.
2. Two-Weapon Style=
   – ( ) = No off-hand attacks, no bonuses for dual-wielding
   – (+) = 1 point melee AC bonus; off-hand attack with 6-point thac0 penalty compared to main hand
   – (++) = 2 point melee AC bonus; off-hand attack with same thac0 penalty as main hand
3. Single handed melee weapons categorised as follows with the penalty applied to the weapon's attacks if dual wielded regardless of which hand:
   • Light (no THAC0 penalty) = Dagger, Short Sword
   • Medium (-2 THAC0 penalty) = Long Sword, Axe, Scimitar, War Hammer, Mace, Club,
   • Heavy (-4 THAC0 penalty) = Katana, Bastard Sword, Flail

Dagger and Short Sword are not distinct irl, and both are definitely easier to dual wield then the rest.

Flails are absolutely ridiculous weapons and definitely awkward enough to count as heavy here.

I really like that you shifted the proficiency to an AC bonus, as that's a major advantage in real life. Ideally that should be melee only; shields are good vs missiles, swords are not. Also a higher AC bonus using daggers makes little sense, a longer weapon is often much better defensively as it can get in the way easier and be used to keep an opponent at reach.

(Assuming it isn't a nightmare to mod) you could even give specific magical medium weapons the Light or Heavy property. I could see some clubs being light and some axes being heavy for example.

Edited October 10, 2023 by 4udr4n
THAC0 penalty!

[subtledoctor]

26 minutes ago, 4udr4n said:

Warning, I'm a bit of a HEMA nerd, these comments assume that we are shooting for realism and I recognise that may not be your or other players' priority.

These conversations need to be careful, or they can dissolve very quickly into turning over the table. I’m of the old-school OD&D/AD&D “a Connecticut Yankee in Middle Earth” idea of how D&D should work. Hit dice should stop being added, ability scores should stay in the realm of real human abilities, etc. In contrast to the 3E/5E “adventurers turn into superheroes” concept. So it sounds like I am in favor of “realism.” Problem is, if you scratch at the realism idea too much, the D&D systems fall apart pretty quickly. The idea of horseman’s flails and polearms and crossbows etc. all sharing a small-squad battlefield is kind of ridiculous. Not to mention adding fantastic monsters and giants into the mix. What happens in this game is wildly simplified and really just about style and game balance. 

So I agree with most of what you wrote, and in fact that is mostly how the mod already works! (But did you mean to have the same thac0 penalty for medium and heavy weapons?) I agree daggers and short swords should be similar - why my item tweaks mod bumps daggers up to 1d5 damage. And I think clubs should indeed be light - I think of them as basically truncheons/batons/canes/chair legs, as the game describes them, rather than “wood maces.” And indeed with IR installed in my game, clubs actually do less damage than daggers!

But I think light/small weapons should provide better AC bonuses, because 1) style - they are light and maneuverable, able to deflect incoming blows, matching the trope of a Renaissance fencer who uses a small main-gauche in the off-hand rather than a second rapier or sabre; and 2) for game balance, I want there to be a reason to set up a Legolas-style dual-daggers build that is a reasonable alternative to @Thacobell’s Eilistraee follower swinging multiple bastard swords for DPS DPS DPS. With this system dual-wielding small weapons becomes a nice middle-of-the-road setup compared to the all-offensive SWS/2HW styles and the defense-focused SNS style. 

49 minutes ago, 4udr4n said:

(Assuming it isn't a nightmare to mod) you could even give specific magical medium weapons the Light or Heavy property.

That’s a fascinating idea, I love it. It’s totally doable - though it wouldn’t be very flexible. I would have to decide which individual weapons are different from their category and code them that way, and that would be that. 

[moggadeet]

On the subject of light/heavy weapons, is it possible to have weapons like daggers use dexterity rather than strength for attack rolls, akin to weapon finesse in 3e? Or is that not in line with what you intend for this mod?

[4udr4n]

23 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

did you mean to have the same thac0 penalty for medium and heavy weapons?

No idea what you mean, clearly -2 and -4, always have been!

24 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

1) style - they are light and maneuverable, able to deflect incoming blows, matching the trope of a Renaissance fencer who uses a small main-gauche in the off-hand rather than a second rapier or sabre

This is mainly due to one rapier being a pretty ungainly thing to wear, let alone two (though there are accounts and surviving examples of dual scabbards for a brace of rapiers - another SG vid in case you enjoyed the last). Also a main-gauche is highly specialised parrying dagger, maybe best represented by a specific item with a bonus to melee AC.

I'm being picky, it's a valid point and I am in favour of mechanics that reward realistic choices here, which yours currently does.
As for light and maneuverable (why is this getting spellchecked? manoeuvrable is a gross spelling!) I would suggest that is better represented in vanilla by Speed Factor or by modding in finesse (Dex based THAC0 bonus) or even weapon reach.

Reach is something I'd love to see, but might be beyond the infinity engine. Got a feeling Temnix had a go once, unsure of the results!
Ideally you'd get a free attack with a chance to halt movement whenever an enemy tried to move within your range, but a THAC0/AC penalty when fighting inside it, scaling with the distance inside. I suspect this just ends up really hard to script the AI for and requiring excessive micromanagement. Another option might be to give THAC0/AC penalties to long weapons when they are close to 2+ walls, representing the difficulty in wielding them in confined spaces. I've no idea how hard that would be to code, but it would be a pretty nice boost to small weapons.

24 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

2) for game balance

This I am on board with. Invalidating whole weapon categories is not where we want to be (though kind of already the case in vanilla!).

25 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

That’s a fascinating idea, I love it. It’s totally doable - though it wouldn’t be very flexible. I would have to decide which individual weapons are different from their category and code them that way, and that would be that. 

Yeah, you're bolting on an item mod atop your proficiencies. Would have to decide the scope (IR? other item mods?).

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, moggadeet said:

is it possible to have weapons like daggers use dexterity rather than strength for attack rolls, akin to weapon finesse in 3e?

2 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

better represented in vanilla by Speed Factor or by modding in finesse (Dex based THAC0 bonus)

I have the tools to do something like this, and I’ve tried it in the past. But it ended up really unsatisfying - you don’t really have DEX builds or STR builds in this game. STR builds always max DEX anyway, and DEX builds end up buffing STR with gauntlets/potions/belts/DUHM. So Finesse always ends up being additive instead of an alternative. 

My Stat Overhaul mod adds some mild melee thac0 bonuses for high DEX… I suppose I could limit that bonus to light weapons. That would be doable, and interesting. 

[Thacobell]

I love the idea of finesse weapons, it just a shame BG never had anything like that.

[moggadeet]

I was thinking it'd be handy for backstab-oriented builds where you're not really benefiting from strength for damage, but you need it to consistently land hits. A niche situation, in fairness, but it might make Imoen or Jan more proficient at backstabs without tying up strength-boosting gear best reserved for other characters.

[Thacobell]

Have a mild bug to report. The combat skills/proficincies, item tweaks and the stat overhaul mods will not install and exit due to missing files unless all three of the mods have their files in the game folder at once. They all seem dependant on each other to install.

[subtledoctor]

Hmm, maybe typo in an INCLUDE somewhere. Will look into it. 

EDIT - sorted.

Edited October 12, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Satrhan]

I've noticed some issues with this mod. Installed this on an otherwise clean BG2. Whipped up a fighter with 3 pips in quarterstaff, 3 in two handed swords, and 2 in two-handed style.

- Thac0 is calculated correctly it seems, but is displayed wrong. You seem to be getting and extra -2 from the weapon (quarterstaff displays the same), but you're not actually getting that (and aren't supposed to).

- With all components installed, Imoen has a skillbook on her that when used wipes her proficiencies, and gives three instances of 'advance weapon proficiency'. When only installing 'Revised proficiency system' and 'Fighting style changes' she doesn't have the book but does have the three instances. Either way, using 'advance weapon proficiency' does nothing.

- In the readme a 'saving throw overhaul' is mentioned, but you don't get an option to install that in the install process.

- Minor issue, the naming of components and the number you refer to them with in the readme seems to be inconsistent. For instance component 10, Weapon Proficiency Overhaul is called 'Revised Proficiency system' in the weidu log, and referred to as component 122 further in the readme.

[subtledoctor]

I have no idea how Beamdog’s thac0 display works; I find it is often inaccurate. If it cannot display bonuses correctly, I’m not sure what I can do about it. This mod doesn’t change the way anything is displayed. 

That all sounds intended, except the dialogue not working. I’ll double-check, but might need a weidu.log to see if there is a bad mod interaction. 

Pretty sure the saving throw overhaul has been enabled after it was inadvertently commented out of the first upload. 

Re: component numbers: thanks for the heads-up. That might also already be fixed, I will check.